Ableton Audio Effects vs. VST Plugins

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:58 pm

Hey everyone!

As I'm on summer holiday I have had extra time on my hands and have been trying out demo versions of tons of VST audio effects, including the Waves Diamond bundle, Wave Arts Power Suite, and most of the range from PSP, Kjaerhus, Izotope, Voxengo, etc. It has been a really interesting exercise.

I already have some of the Kjaerhus golden effects (the compressor, eq and modulator, to be exact).

Having come to Ableton from a past with Cubase, Tracktion and Reason, I never put a lot of trust in the effects that bundled with sequencers, and have largely overlooked the Ableton Live audio effects until now...

So while playing with all these other (often quite expensive) plugins, I decided to check out the Ableton ones alongside them... and the truth is that I'm REALLY impressed with them. Well, most of them anyway

So my question for discussion is:... how many of you use the Ableton effects, how many have simply ignored them, and how many of you prefer plugins. If you prefer plugins, which ones and why do you think they are worth the extra money?

To get the ball rolling, I would say that one Ableton effect I couldn't use on its own would be the reverb. I find it can be used to good effect on a track, but sounds bad on a bus/mix.

On the other hand, the EQ4, Compressor 2 and some of the filters sound great to my humble ears.

ekko · Post by **ekko** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:03 pm

I agree with you on the reverb. Also because it's so CPU hungry.

OTO, I pretty much use the rest of Live's effects with no problems. I particularly like the delays and the EQ's.

For reverb I use the old Native|TC bundle.

About the only other AU effect that i use is NI's Spektral Delay. Anyone else still using that? I love it.

Oh, and the Fish Filets stuff.

spiderprod · Post by **spiderprod** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:07 pm

yes they do sound right ,i use the filters ,comps & delays quite often ,
for the hardest jobs ,i use steinberg mastering edition plugins ,some voxengo plugs (the voxformer is very good) .for reverb i still use a lexicon reverb as it suck too much power .

ekko · Post by **ekko** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:09 pm

spiderprod wrote:for reverb i still use a lexicon reverb as it suck too much power .

Hey, i forgot that 5.0 is "external effects friendly"...I may have to pull the old Lex out of moth balls and use that!

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:59 pm

That's interesting feedback - thanks. It sounds like I'm not TOO far off base then!

THe thing that struck me was that the difference I can spot (on my monitoring system, which is not pro studio standard!) between - for example - the Ableton EQ and Compression effects and the Waves effects is fairly minimal. And mostly down to "the user" - me! I was wondering how people wold therefore justify spending big bucks on this other stuff... unless I'm missing something?

But I was also wondering whether the Ableton effects were basically designed for quick 'n' dirty use in a "live situation", rather than for proper production?

ekko · Post by **ekko** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:15 pm

Reminded by another thread...

SuperTrigga! Man, I use that on EVERYTHING.

It's particularly cool for creating some variety in basslines.

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:41 pm

I use Spectral Delay a lot. It really does the trick when Grain Delay isn't doing it. I also like Grainstates in Reaktor.

Plug wise I use lots of Reaktor. For distortion there is a killer one in Reaktor called Electric Banan that is super thick and mean.

I find I use Live's Reverb pretty often. Probably because I don't have a reverb that I really like, and it's so easy to automate the one in Live.

But I can always get what I want from the EQs and Compressors. It'd be cool to have more compressors, but it's a want not a need. I'm sure in the future I'll be using the new Auto Pan plug.

I know this one guy who has been rebuilding all of the effects he uses in Live as custom Reaktor modules, and then using those in Live as opposed to the originals that inspired the Reaktor modules he built. It's a hell of a load of work, but he's happy.

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:19 pm

For some reason I don't seem to get good use out of the frigging compressor. I just don't like it. And for heavy compression such as kicks or such...nah...

What plugin would you recommend for a good all around reverb? I don't mean high-end, but something that will give a decent sound without eating too much CPU, for live usage...

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:26 pm

I agree with everyone here. The Live Delays are the best I've used, not only in sound quality but in ease of use. The compressor and EQ are great and super super efficient. The reverb leaves a lot to be desired. New plugs like Beat Repeat, Chorus, Phaser, and Saturator are all fantastic. No need to spend $2K on Waves at all!!!

Although Live's filter is great for most purposes, I've found Antares Filter, Nitro, and Quadfrohmage to have various uses for sweeps and such. The Quad, I never got to work with Live because Live only uses the first 128 parameters to automate, and although there were some tips to configure it to have the filter sweeps in there, it just never worked for me. In any case, the Antares and PSP Nitro are just wonderfully smooth sounding.

Also, take a look at Ultrafunk Sonitus plugs - super efficienat and great sounding. Their EQ, Compressor, and especially Reverb are phenomenal. They sold off to Cakewalk, so they are only DirectX now, but by all means try to grab the last VST version, wich is v3.0c. Also great are T-Racks for both mastering and individual tracks, as well as most of the Voxengo stuff (although the running joke is, "How many plugins and variations of those plugins can one russian developer create and support when trapped on a deserted island with a computer and a bottle of vodka?"

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:28 pm

tomperson wrote:For some reason I don't seem to get good use out of the frigging compressor. I just don't like it. And for heavy compression such as kicks or such...nah...

What plugin would you recommend for a good all around reverb? I don't mean high-end, but something that will give a decent sound without eating too much CPU, for live usage...

For the compressor, try T-Racks or Sonalksis or Ultrafunk.

For reverb, without a doubt, Ultrafunk.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:33 pm

From the reverbs I tried, Wave Arts Masterverb stood out for having very low CPU. Around 5% on my laptop, compared to 24% for Ambience (at the top end of the CPU spectrum!).

Masterverb is currently reduced price of $99 from the Wave Arts site until the end of August.

On the freeware side, I like the Kjaerhus Classic Reverb which is nice contrast to the Ableton one - very warm tone possible. Again it has very low CPU - around 8% here, the second best after Masterverb.

Personally i not convinced that it is worth spending the money on Masterverb having compared it alongside the Kjaerhus Classic.... but it IS very nice anyway.

There's several others... but I just thought several were overpriced to be honest. With some decent tweeking, most reverbs are capable of sounding better than their presets suggest....!

ct43 · Post by **ct43** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:33 pm

the compressor is the only thing I dont use in Live, everything else I use all the time... though with EQ I usually reach for the Sonalksis.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:33 pm

nebulae wrote: For reverb, without a doubt, Ultrafunk.

Do you have a link for that one?

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:34 pm

headquest wrote:
nebulae wrote: For reverb, without a doubt, Ultrafunk.
Do you have a link for that one?

Unfortunately, they sold off to Cakewalk, so they are no longer developing the VST versions. However, here's a review: http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.n ... E70001F677

You might be able to get an older version off the web somewhere.

As for Wave Arts Masterverb, it's the most CPU friendly reverb (and Ultrafunk comes in as a really close second for low CPU). But Masterverb compromises on the reverb tail, which can sound grainy. Try it on drums with a long decay and you'll hear it...the last bits of the tail sound a bit crappy.

krank · Post by **krank** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:31 am

nebulae wrote:
tomperson wrote:For some reason I don't seem to get good use out of the frigging compressor. I just don't like it. And for heavy compression such as kicks or such...nah...

What plugin would you recommend for a good all around reverb? I don't mean high-end, but something that will give a decent sound without eating too much CPU, for live usage...
For the compressor, try T-Racks or Sonalksis or Ultrafunk.

For reverb, without a doubt, Ultrafunk.

Ultrafunk... did it come in a Mac ed.?