Very well said.LOFA wrote:I get really pissed off when someone antagonizes me for paying for software, yet I make a point of keeping my professional life clean. I feel that the extra work I put into something to pay for it, will somehow complement my work ethic while using it. It's perhaps my own superstition that by assuming a profeesional attitude I will more likely be able to assume a professional stauts in a closer future.
I am of course a hypocrite, as I don't feel this obligation with large companies, but as soon as my interest goes beyond tinkering I buy. The new Adobe CS is gonna be a bitch, but come fall, I will need to use intensively for school. I don't feel any moral obligation to some of these larger companies, especially as their products are overpriced so that businesses/schools compensate for all of the cracks, but I pay for their software simply to watch my own ass.
I sometimes wish that I didn't pay for logic (as apples support is aprehensable), but having done so, I have made the effort to approach it in a professional manner.
I too hope that support after 5 dosen't become support A.5..
Crisis of conscience
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dirtystudios
- Posts: 1196
- Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:28 am
this is totally just my opinion, but what i honestly believe is that a good portion of big name software in any industry can owe a lot of it's market share to the fac tthat peopel were able to get cracked versions of their software.
Photoshop, Flash, Audio Sequencers, etc...
Personally, i learned how to use these programs in an illegitimate way - i downloaded them and made things.
Today, my day job involves using Photoshop, Flash, Sound Forge, etc extensively, while at night I write music -- and I now own copies of every piece of software I use. Photoshop, amongst others, is an extremely expensive program, and had I not managed to "find" it in the early days, I would not be where I am today...
I have since paid my dues (in this case, for software licences), and all is good.
I definitely think a LOT of power users learned in the same way. Photoshop would not be nearly as popular as it is had it not hit the general public through illicit channels.
The same goes for the audio industry, and I wouldn't be surprised if this cracking thing is done on purpose, with full knowledge from the makers. Afterall, how many people here actually went to school to learn any of this? Do you think a demo's lifespan is long enough for you to learn a program inside and out? Do you think people who DON'T know the software are going to just blindly drop $500 or whatever to buy it? Definitely some, but not nearly all.
like others have said, if yer gonna use this stuff and start making money off it without giving anything back, you suck. If you are using it to train yourself, i say go for it. Just make sure you remember how you got to where you are, and pay your dues.
again, just my opinion
Photoshop, Flash, Audio Sequencers, etc...
Personally, i learned how to use these programs in an illegitimate way - i downloaded them and made things.
Today, my day job involves using Photoshop, Flash, Sound Forge, etc extensively, while at night I write music -- and I now own copies of every piece of software I use. Photoshop, amongst others, is an extremely expensive program, and had I not managed to "find" it in the early days, I would not be where I am today...
I have since paid my dues (in this case, for software licences), and all is good.
I definitely think a LOT of power users learned in the same way. Photoshop would not be nearly as popular as it is had it not hit the general public through illicit channels.
The same goes for the audio industry, and I wouldn't be surprised if this cracking thing is done on purpose, with full knowledge from the makers. Afterall, how many people here actually went to school to learn any of this? Do you think a demo's lifespan is long enough for you to learn a program inside and out? Do you think people who DON'T know the software are going to just blindly drop $500 or whatever to buy it? Definitely some, but not nearly all.
like others have said, if yer gonna use this stuff and start making money off it without giving anything back, you suck. If you are using it to train yourself, i say go for it. Just make sure you remember how you got to where you are, and pay your dues.
again, just my opinion
Yeah, I did that and the person sounded legitimately sad. They even said (to refer to the last post) that they were planning on buying it when they got some cash (for whatever that is worth).dirtystudios wrote:Just tell them that you know the guys who write the software, and that they're really cool guys who love what they do and the software is more than worth it.
That usually makes them at least feel guilty for pirating.
k
My conscience is even worse off now than when I started, as I can't tell if I am being bulls&*^ed or if I really may have gone off of the deep end.
Well at least it felt good to stand up for something I care about! (for a second or two...)
I hope this person eventually buys it, as they are amazingly talented and can bring a lot to it. I think what angers me, going back to the quote, is that I do sort of feel like I know Ableton (in some derivative, fantastical way) and that if this peron did as well, they never would have done this.
Also, I realize that I recieved my first copy of Live delta almost by accident when I purchased a firewire interface. Had I not, I may also have used a crack to evaluate the software. For an outsider, for all I know, a crack might have been more effortless to find than the demo.
I give up. They will buy live eventually. They will be hooked no questions asked.
I wouldn't worry about anyone using a crack of Live. What will happen is they will start using the program and falling in love with it, then after a couple months, they will go to open a project they are working on that really rocks. When they open it they will get an error that says "A copy protection violation has been detected, please contact ableton support". They will try to delete everything and reinstall, but that old project won't open. They will be forced to buy the legit version, by any means neccessary, because they now have so many ableton projects that they can no longer work on, and they will feel that other sequencers are now cumbersome. It's a brilliant concept, I've witnessed it first hand, and I now own Live legally. I planned to buy it anyway, because I did feel so guilty for using the crack, but once it was no longer usable, I knew I had to have the legit version NOW, so I got financing at my music store and bought it. 
I used to have tons of warez, and I learned so much from using them, but I started feeling bad and started replacing my warezed plugs with either legal versions, or freeware alternatives. If the developers don't get paid, software technology suffers, so warez users think they are getting ahead by saving money on software, but they really aren't.
I used to have tons of warez, and I learned so much from using them, but I started feeling bad and started replacing my warezed plugs with either legal versions, or freeware alternatives. If the developers don't get paid, software technology suffers, so warez users think they are getting ahead by saving money on software, but they really aren't.
I'm a pretty emotional dude sometimes. I think I overreacted, but at least I spoke my mind.
The more I think about it, the craks really do serve as a functional means of advertisement.
I agree with you, especially on these two points, milfbait:
1) the crack user eventually finds they need more
2) The development suffers.
It is sort of funny though... a lot of people who are drawn to f'n up other peoples' tracks, neither want to pay for their samples or their software. With strong protection, and addictive software, ableton most likely is trumping this whole dynamic anyways!
The more I think about it, the craks really do serve as a functional means of advertisement.
I agree with you, especially on these two points, milfbait:
1) the crack user eventually finds they need more
2) The development suffers.
It is sort of funny though... a lot of people who are drawn to f'n up other peoples' tracks, neither want to pay for their samples or their software. With strong protection, and addictive software, ableton most likely is trumping this whole dynamic anyways!
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Jordan Vesteyo
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:42 am
- Location: Brooklyn/Philly
1. The cracked version of Live is every bit as stable as the paid version (in Live 5, this is not saying much though).
2. Pretty much every user of Live I know personally (myself included) bought the software after using the crack for at least a couple of months. You can't return software to the store if you don't like it, and sometimes it takes longer than the demo period to know if a certain piece of software will work for you. Thus, some people use cracks to evaluate software before they for over hundreds of dollars.
Ableton is extremely lucky in this regard, as many people seem to like the software and support so much that they feel the need to pay for the software to support ongoing development. I think a great deal of this is due to how many user requests they continually add to the software, and their incredible web presence on this board. We get honest answers to our questions very quickly, with no BS most of the time. This alone is what made me want to buy Live, you actually feel like the developers are listening to what YOU want.
I own SX as well, and it's the exact opposite on their boards. Lot's of company people on the board, but they don't tell you anything and keep on implementing features no one is really asking for.
Anyway, I'm not condoning piracy at all, it's there and it's not going away. Just stating that from my own viewpoint, Ableton gets many, many more warez users actually paying for the software at a later date than other companies do.
2. Pretty much every user of Live I know personally (myself included) bought the software after using the crack for at least a couple of months. You can't return software to the store if you don't like it, and sometimes it takes longer than the demo period to know if a certain piece of software will work for you. Thus, some people use cracks to evaluate software before they for over hundreds of dollars.
Ableton is extremely lucky in this regard, as many people seem to like the software and support so much that they feel the need to pay for the software to support ongoing development. I think a great deal of this is due to how many user requests they continually add to the software, and their incredible web presence on this board. We get honest answers to our questions very quickly, with no BS most of the time. This alone is what made me want to buy Live, you actually feel like the developers are listening to what YOU want.
I own SX as well, and it's the exact opposite on their boards. Lot's of company people on the board, but they don't tell you anything and keep on implementing features no one is really asking for.
Anyway, I'm not condoning piracy at all, it's there and it's not going away. Just stating that from my own viewpoint, Ableton gets many, many more warez users actually paying for the software at a later date than other companies do.
tarekith
https://tarekith.com
https://tarekith.com
it's a really odd subject taken as a whole.
one that is near to my heart as a I make and sell web apps, often the clients try and clone them and sell them on ... only to 'come a cropper ' a little way down the line and need my help. How do I feel about this ?
resigned mainly.
when someone 'steals' some software of mine .. or some music (more topically) - it's not the same as them stealing my guitar. It's a new paradigm and one that we need time to adjust to.
there is a lot of moralising and a lot of liberalism, but I somehow feel that neither manages to address the issue correctly. There are 3 or more types of software users
type 1: - download demo and purchase
type 2:- download crack and then purchase after 6-12 months
type 3:- download crack and never ever pay any money
obviously the issue is group 3, how do we consider them? Normally these people are relatively poor and are not proffesional, as no-one professional can live in group 3 ... with its "TRY BEFORE YOU BUY" messages popping up on the studio monitor!
I prefer to think of them as unoficial marketing men who actually supply group 2, indirectly providing legit sales.
as in my above example about web apps, the dodgy ex-clients have to ask me how to fix the cloned version that they sold on - I then have a new customer (or customers) without any sales effort. Some villains obviously slip through, but I can take it.
As for the concept of software manufacturers making the cracks themselves ..
yeah, right. I think there are people who do that job for free.
one that is near to my heart as a I make and sell web apps, often the clients try and clone them and sell them on ... only to 'come a cropper ' a little way down the line and need my help. How do I feel about this ?
resigned mainly.
when someone 'steals' some software of mine .. or some music (more topically) - it's not the same as them stealing my guitar. It's a new paradigm and one that we need time to adjust to.
there is a lot of moralising and a lot of liberalism, but I somehow feel that neither manages to address the issue correctly. There are 3 or more types of software users
type 1: - download demo and purchase
type 2:- download crack and then purchase after 6-12 months
type 3:- download crack and never ever pay any money
obviously the issue is group 3, how do we consider them? Normally these people are relatively poor and are not proffesional, as no-one professional can live in group 3 ... with its "TRY BEFORE YOU BUY" messages popping up on the studio monitor!
I prefer to think of them as unoficial marketing men who actually supply group 2, indirectly providing legit sales.
as in my above example about web apps, the dodgy ex-clients have to ask me how to fix the cloned version that they sold on - I then have a new customer (or customers) without any sales effort. Some villains obviously slip through, but I can take it.
As for the concept of software manufacturers making the cracks themselves ..
yeah, right. I think there are people who do that job for free.same ol same ol
things have a way of working themselves out...
when i was 12 years old and learning about computers a had cracks of c compilers, bbs softwares, and whatever else i was using. Hows a 12 year old kid gonna get a couple grand to build a software library that he is going too learn with?
when I worked for the university I had soft money to take advantage of and i bought everything straight up. As a semipro musician I feel that if I'm making money off it, I should buy. Plus there are incentives to buying software, right? There should be.
One way or another I have made my living on a PC and what I can do with it. I got my feet wet between the ages of 12-17 using pirated software that there was no way I could afford. If I wouldn't pirated all sorts of stuff I would not have learned anything.
I think things are a bit different now with the internet and all, so my sob stories violen shrinks all the more--however you gotta keep things in perspective. Profesional companies and universities make software companies tons of money. They have no business pirating software. Same goes for professional musicians and studios. A musician who pirates is a real hypocrit. Downloading a crack of some 3d animation software to see what its all about isn't that big a deal to me. I'm not gonna design your home with it and I'm not gonna pay $500 to satisfy curiousity. Software companies offer demos so that point just became minute...
Wise up. Lives 4 month expiration against it's crack is one of the cleverest marketing ploys I have ever seen. Think about how far you can get into Live in just a few months and then have to do with out it? No way...You gotta go buy it. They are defeating the pirates at their own game. Very clever...
when i was 12 years old and learning about computers a had cracks of c compilers, bbs softwares, and whatever else i was using. Hows a 12 year old kid gonna get a couple grand to build a software library that he is going too learn with?
when I worked for the university I had soft money to take advantage of and i bought everything straight up. As a semipro musician I feel that if I'm making money off it, I should buy. Plus there are incentives to buying software, right? There should be.
One way or another I have made my living on a PC and what I can do with it. I got my feet wet between the ages of 12-17 using pirated software that there was no way I could afford. If I wouldn't pirated all sorts of stuff I would not have learned anything.
I think things are a bit different now with the internet and all, so my sob stories violen shrinks all the more--however you gotta keep things in perspective. Profesional companies and universities make software companies tons of money. They have no business pirating software. Same goes for professional musicians and studios. A musician who pirates is a real hypocrit. Downloading a crack of some 3d animation software to see what its all about isn't that big a deal to me. I'm not gonna design your home with it and I'm not gonna pay $500 to satisfy curiousity. Software companies offer demos so that point just became minute...
Wise up. Lives 4 month expiration against it's crack is one of the cleverest marketing ploys I have ever seen. Think about how far you can get into Live in just a few months and then have to do with out it? No way...You gotta go buy it. They are defeating the pirates at their own game. Very clever...
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CynicalSmile
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:45 pm
So much justification for stealing someone else's hard work. 
I personally don't give a shit if you're poor or whatever your sob story is, you have no right to steal a company's intellectual property, no exceptions.
I just wonder what all you financially challenged musicians would have done back in the hardware days. I was poor too, but damned if I didn't save up for all the hardware I needed to make music. The second problem is all of you younger people are SPOILED as HELL. With just FruityLoops ($150) and Vanguard ($89) I could make today in minutes what took me hours on hardware.....$250 worth of software eclipses many times more worth of hardware. Then step up to something like Live and Sonar plus the multitude of soft synths I have now and it's like heaven. Kids don't realize how wonderful these software tools are, and obviously can come up with justifications to steal it.....and people complain that the dongle came about...Efffff youuuuu!
I personally don't give a shit if you're poor or whatever your sob story is, you have no right to steal a company's intellectual property, no exceptions. I just wonder what all you financially challenged musicians would have done back in the hardware days. I was poor too, but damned if I didn't save up for all the hardware I needed to make music. The second problem is all of you younger people are SPOILED as HELL. With just FruityLoops ($150) and Vanguard ($89) I could make today in minutes what took me hours on hardware.....$250 worth of software eclipses many times more worth of hardware. Then step up to something like Live and Sonar plus the multitude of soft synths I have now and it's like heaven. Kids don't realize how wonderful these software tools are, and obviously can come up with justifications to steal it.....and people complain that the dongle came about...Efffff youuuuu!
what you say is (in a sense) true, but that's the world we are in. People are spoiled and it doesn't necessarily make for better music having so much software so easilly available .. it only seems to devalue it.
we have a primates idea of valuation - the more something weighs, the more it is worth.
It may take a while to evolve out of that one.
I spend about 70% of my working week writing dull documents trying to justify my software writing time & costs to resistant customers .. and in this case we are talking about huge organisations like EMI or Warners.
It always seems a bit rich that I have to explain to EMI that they cant just copy my software for free !!!
It's just the nature of the beast
we have a primates idea of valuation - the more something weighs, the more it is worth.
It may take a while to evolve out of that one.
I spend about 70% of my working week writing dull documents trying to justify my software writing time & costs to resistant customers .. and in this case we are talking about huge organisations like EMI or Warners.
It always seems a bit rich that I have to explain to EMI that they cant just copy my software for free !!!
It's just the nature of the beast
That's fucking histerical. Believe me I have thought about it.The funny thing is, both me and one of my closest friends grew up in a squat- he's in the NYPD now and I get emotional when people steal software... wierd fucking world.Chris J wrote:LOFA, what about joining the police ?
Now that I think about it, my ex-fiancee was a bad hacker (busted multiple times, it's really sad,). Perhaps she just ruined the tradition for me?
As far as the relevenace to this topic... I dunno, maybe you are on to something?!?!?!
going back to what CynicalSmile said, I agree that buy investing in software one transcends a certain intellectual paradigm, where they are no longer spoiled, and have more of a capacity to use a software to it's fullist.At least this is my experience, and I am a dedicated geek.
Wow, you know it's so funny that you said that about the cops. My friend always says if the whole artist/musician/designer thing doesn't pan-out, it would be great to have more of people like us on the force. Abstract, ironic, not very hip, but true.
One real thing to consider is that there could be various unpleasant things that could happen after the fact if someone is found using stolen software for commercial purposes, like the fabled italisn DJ who was caught using a laptop full of dubious MP3s in his sets. The bad part about this is that the law is a big stupid blunt instrument that can strike indiscriminately, and the perception that "hardly any producers pay for their software" starts to make anyone using a laptop for musical purposes quasi-criminal.
UTENZIL a tool... of the muse.