Is there a way to extend your # of MIDI assignable controls?

[Tim V]

Hi - I'm trying to find out if Ableton, or Max 4 Live has a plugin or a feature that can create another bank of controls to give a limited MIDI controller more things to control. For example, if a controller only has 8 encoders and I need those encoders to latch on to more than just 8 things within a plugin. I was also looking at a MIDI controller (to compliment Push) that has 8 knobs but you can select 4 banks on the controller itself, thus making it 32 rotary encoders, not 8. But the rest of the controller was pretty poor so I didn't buy it. Useful little feature though!

Any advice? Thanks

[TomViolenz]

Hi - I'm trying to find out if Ableton, or Max 4 Live has a plugin or a feature that can create another bank of controls to give a limited MIDI controller more things to control. For example, if a controller only has 8 encoders and I need those encoders to latch on to more than just 8 things within a plugin. I was also looking at a MIDI controller (to compliment Push) that has 8 knobs but you can select 4 banks on the controller itself, thus making it 32 rotary encoders, not 8. But the rest of the controller was pretty poor so I didn't buy it. Useful little feature though!

Any advice? Thanks

What exactly do you desire?!

Do you want it to have regular device control with banking and device switching/locking?! That's easy, you could just use a UserRemote script. Any 8 encoder controller with endless encoders could be used in such a way.

Do you want to hard midi assign 32 midi controls to 8 encoders?! That too might be easy, if the 4 banks make the 8 encoders send out different midi CCs in each bank. You could even have both: One bank has general device control, while the other 3 get Midi assigned directly.

The general problem is though, that the usefullness of having so many controls on a controller without a display is quite limited. Because you are constantly second guessing, what it is you are actually controlling atm.

[Tim V]

Thanks for your help. I understand most of what you say, especially the part about keeping track of all the assignments. I currently have a Novation SL MK2 with Automap, but I hate it. I find it too deep and would rather just have a controller that I can use to automate my VST’s easily alongside Push. For example, on Sylenth, I want to grab all the faders (16 total on different pages), and about 10 knobs and buttons for multi-shot recording, but without having to re-assign the same 8 available knobs to new things to get it all done.

I think I’m also revealing my rookie MIDI knowledge here as I don’t understand terms like, “hard MIDI assign”, or what a UserRemote script is. Nor do I fully understand how CC’s work, except that they are generic control slots which may or may not line up with your CC number in your software.

So really, I’m looking to simplify things but also to give myself the flexibility to quickly record automation into my DAW and make the best use of my plugins with quick controls

[TomViolenz]

I think I’m also revealing my rookie MIDI knowledge here as I don’t understand terms like, “hard MIDI assign”, or what a UserRemote script is. Nor do I fully understand how CC’s work, except that they are generic control slots which may or may not line up with your CC number in your software.

I don't think you will get around familiarizing yourself with these concepts.

A few pointers:

Midi: You have 16 Midi channels available. Each channel can send/receive 128 different Midi CCs (0-127) AND Midi notes (C-2 - G8).

Some controllers have these assigned on the hardware (or at least a software layer, that is not acessible to you) and some give you access to change which encoder/button sends which Midi message. (Automap is in part such a software layer, that lets you assign this to your encoders/buttons. For this purpose Automap is a very valuable tool and should be used. - This has nothing to do with making all these mappings for your vsts in Automap, that function I don't like to use either)

When you hard assign something in Live that means, that you hit Lives Midi tab and then click the parameter you want to control and then turn the encoder on your controller. This will make the encoder invariably control this parameter (in that set).

A different way to control things in Live is via Midi scripts. The easiest of these which can be done by any Live user without any required programming knowledge, are UserRemote scripts.

They are a sort of translation layer between your controller and Live.

Ableton has provided an easy to apply template, where you just have to put in the Midi CCs that your encoders send at the right slots. Where the UserRemote scripts are and how to use them is something for you to find out. (youtube tutorials and such, the Manual is unfortunately no help in this)

What this will provide you is control over the blue hand in Live. Meaning the 8 encoders on your controller basically behave the same way as the 8 encoders on Push do.

So if you have this applied, the encoders of your controller always control exactly the same controls as Push does, when you move between devices and banks with it.
This can become very useful, if you also assign in the UserRemote script the available Lock-to-device functionality to a button on your controller.

This way you can move between banks/devices with your Push then press that button on your controller and the controller will stay locked to these parameters while you are free to move around the devices with Push and have its 8 encoders control some other bank or device.

[Tim V]

Thanks. I follow....sort of. I need to do some research as you say but really I'm not a techie guy, I just want a basic way to speed up my workflow using Push and another controller for other things that I find are too deep into doing with Push (e.g. using my own VST's as stated.

But when you say, "the encoders of your controller always control exactly the same controls as Push does" this is what I'm trying to AVOID, having Push do what it's best at - controlling Ableton - and my own VST's parameters controlled using another controller....unless I've not understood you?

[yur2die4]

The Remote SL MKii can do a lot of stuff!

Have you tried using it where you turn off Automap?

By default the Remote has the ability to do standard blue hand control, but as a bonus the rotary encoders can display all the parameters of whichever device you are currently using.

In the case of a vst, you have to group a vst within a rack, and then make all of the vst's parameters available with the vst Configure tool. They'll show up as a bunch of horizontal sliders. While Configure is on, you can move them around in the order you prefer. Then save that Rack, and load that rack whenever you load the vst.

When you have the blue hand choosing that rack, you'll be able to page up and down on either your Novation Remote OR your Push to view all the parameters you've configured. (A handy tip, arrange them in groups of 8 ).

Also, I apologize if this adds to the complete overall confusion. It is confusing enough having one person explain things and give you ideas. When you have two different things going on at once, I can understand it'll be pretty overwhelming.

[Tim V]

The Remote SL MKii can do a lot of stuff!

Have you tried using it where you turn off Automap?

By default the Remote has the ability to do standard blue hand control, but as a bonus the rotary encoders can display all the parameters of whichever device you are currently using.

In the case of a vst, you have to group a vst within a rack, and then make all of the vst's parameters available with the vst Configure tool. They'll show up as a bunch of horizontal sliders. While Configure is on, you can move them around in the order you prefer. Then save that Rack, and load that rack whenever you load the vst.

When you have the blue hand choosing that rack, you'll be able to page up and down on either your Novation Remote OR your Push to view all the parameters you've configured. (A handy tip, arrange them in groups of 8 ).

Also, I apologize if this adds to the complete overall confusion. It is confusing enough having one person explain things and give you ideas. When you have two different things going on at once, I can understand it'll be pretty overwhelming.

Actually, no disrespect to the previous guy (Tom) but this is more my language. I've done some of this with my SL already, but didn't / don't know how deep I could / can go. I also seem to have some trouble with it - I only ever seem to get ONE control over whatever I'm currently grabbing onto in my VST ~( with Automap OFF). It's just a single item on the far left display on my SL. I don't know if this is an error or if I'm doing it wrong but it's really frustrating not knowing where to go with the controller to control other things.

The SL also feels like it's got way too many buttons and (I didn't have an issue at the time) it's a little too big with Push taking up some room on my desk. So I'm between a rock and a hard place where I may be missing (or not understanding) how to use my controller properly, but the possibility of it doing exactly what I want from a workflow perspective, and simplifying / downsizing my controller, but losing some of the functionality I currently have (or might have if it's not broken!)

Thanks

[yur2die4]

Well, a heartbreaking truth is that he Remote is also one of the few controllers that can't be 'locked to a device'. So it'd sort of mirror a lot of Push's activity. However, there are a lot of other options, like the row of knobs that don't even get used.

First, to verify, you're using the Ableton preset on the Remote? When you use any of Live's native devices, it shows all their parameters?

When controlling vsts that aren't using the 'configure' option to pull up extra parameters from a vst, you'll only be able to by default control One parameter at a time, which will be the 'last selected parameter on the vst'. I'm sure you could verify that.

I'll post about what 'Configure' is next.

[yur2die4]

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/worki ... g-plug-ins

I'd read that section. 17.2 etc. Especially the part about 'Configure'.

This is a way for Live to take control of parameters using Live's interface instead of Through the plug in.

Once Live has those parameters configured, selecting that device gives you control over the parameters. The problem is, you can't save that parameter layout all by itself. There is this frustrating aspect where you must Group the device into a Device Rack (Ctrl G) before you're able to save that layout to recall in later sets.

What is equally annoying is that since the device is embedded within a device, in order to control the parameters quickly, you need to navigate INTO the Device Rack. Kind of frustrating.



On the flip side, there are two other weird ways to work with vsts. One is with 'Automap' which essentially wraps a vst, and then lets you configure your own layout and pages. Automap is downloadable at the Novation site. I personally don't use it. I don't like wrapping vsts, but from what I hear it does give swift, automatic, and custom control of devices.

Another method is kind of old school. You can send a midi cc to an instrument on a midi channel. Some but not all of those instruments Can be mapped to cc's. Basically, if you map something this way, and you fiddle a control that has the appropriate cc, it'll change that parameter in the vst. This works when that channel in Live is receiving incoming midi (armed or set to In). You can map the came cc's to different vsts for consistency, and when you change channels they'll each work appropriately. It might be fun to experiment with that by using the Second row of knobs on your mk2, since they aren't mapped to anything anyway.


To be honest. Each Push and the mk2 are amazing on their own. But they conflict pretty heavily with one another. The mk2 plays nicer with Other controllers though . It is very fast and fun.

[Tim V]

Well, a heartbreaking truth is that he Remote is also one of the few controllers that can't be 'locked to a device'. So it'd sort of mirror a lot of Push's activity. However, there are a lot of other options, like the row of knobs that don't even get used.

First, to verify, you're using the Ableton preset on the Remote? When you use any of Live's native devices, it shows all their parameters?

When controlling vsts that aren't using the 'configure' option to pull up extra parameters from a vst, you'll only be able to by default control One parameter at a time, which will be the 'last selected parameter on the vst'. I'm sure you could verify that.

I'll post about what 'Configure' is next.

I think I must just be selecting the wrong function or something as I remember seeing the parameters before. But between that state, the Automap state (where, incidentally nothing shows up on the FX / Instruments / User pages - I can't recall having to "put" anything in there before), and the default control with one control, I feel like I'm shooting in the dark.

Regardless, I do think I need to downsize from my SL because I prefer the idea of a simple nanoKONTROL or something and a set of extra rotaries. I was looking at the AKAI MPK MK2 but what is holding me back is the 8 rotaries. If they are assignable to more than 8 "places" to control VST parameters in different banks or pages or something I would much prefer this to having to deal with the SL, IF it doesn't cost me functionality / flexibility.

Does that make sense? (PS I know configure resides in the menus...)

[Tim V]

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/worki ... g-plug-ins

I'd read that section. 17.2 etc. Especially the part about 'Configure'.

This is a way for Live to take control of parameters using Live's interface instead of Through the plug in.

Once Live has those parameters configured, selecting that device gives you control over the parameters. The problem is, you can't save that parameter layout all by itself. There is this frustrating aspect where you must Group the device into a Device Rack (Ctrl G) before you're able to save that layout to recall in later sets.

What is equally annoying is that since the device is embedded within a device, in order to control the parameters quickly, you need to navigate INTO the Device Rack. Kind of frustrating.



On the flip side, there are two other weird ways to work with vsts. One is with 'Automap' which essentially wraps a vst, and then lets you configure your own layout and pages. Automap is downloadable at the Novation site. I personally don't use it. I don't like wrapping vsts, but from what I hear it does give swift, automatic, and custom control of devices.

Another method is kind of old school. You can send a midi cc to an instrument on a midi channel. Some but not all of those instruments Can be mapped to cc's. Basically, if you map something this way, and you fiddle a control that has the appropriate cc, it'll change that parameter in the vst. This works when that channel in Live is receiving incoming midi (armed or set to In). You can map the came cc's to different vsts for consistency, and when you change channels they'll each work appropriately. It might be fun to experiment with that by using the Second row of knobs on your mk2, since they aren't mapped to anything anyway.


To be honest. Each Push and the mk2 are amazing on their own. But they conflict pretty heavily with one another. The mk2 plays nicer with Other controllers though . It is very fast and fun.

Thanks - pros & cons. I'd like a voice activated midi controller, or screentouch feature for DAW & VST. Now that would rock.

[yur2die4]

If you have Automap turned off and press in the speed dial, you have the option to choose your controller's presets.

I'm assuming you have Ableton chosen? Also, if you go to midi mapping mode in Live, make sure the encoders aren't mapped to anything.

[Tim V]

If you have Automap turned off and press in the speed dial, you have the option to choose your controller's presets.

I'm assuming you have Ableton chosen? Also, if you go to midi mapping mode in Live, make sure the encoders aren't mapped to anything.

Useful, I'll have a go