Today’s police show restraint

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beats me
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by beats me » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:11 pm

TomViolenz wrote:
beats me wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:Except that racism was the ad hoc rationalisation for slavery.
Without slavery and the later resulting (pseudo scientific) eugenics movement, racism in this modern form would not exist.

No need to feel guilty about owning people like cattle, if they are not really human, you know... ;-)


Still a red herring that doesn’t offer any solutions, just excuses.
Excuses? What needs to be excused?! :?

It was an explanation for the source of it.
This is not really all that controversial either, but the state of knowledge in the political sciences.

Excuse #1: Black people are still held back by a system that started with slavery
Excuse #2: Some people are racists today because of lineage that dates back to slavery.

That’s a 150 year old excuse that’s trying to explain or justify why some people just are the way they are despite the end of slavery. No need for personal responsibility or living in the present.

TomViolenz
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:38 pm

beats me wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:
beats me wrote: Still a red herring that doesn’t offer any solutions, just excuses.
Excuses? What needs to be excused?! :?

It was an explanation for the source of it.
This is not really all that controversial either, but the state of knowledge in the political sciences.

Excuse #1: Black people are still held back by a system that started with slavery
Excuse #2: Some people are racists today because of lineage that dates back to slavery.

That’s a 150 year old excuse that’s trying to explain or justify why some people just are the way they are despite the end of slavery. No need for personal responsibility or living in the present.
And you will sure post a quote where I said anything resembling the bolded part?!

But beyond that:
Yes, the social harm that was done to the blacks several centuries ago is still holding them back.
Yes, the cultural roots of racism that were seeded among the whites in order to maintain the institution of slavery are still affecting todays thinking in American (and not only) society.
The structural inequality is still prevelant.

What is so hard to understand about that?!

Hitler justified the genocide of the jews with the antisemitism that had been propagated by the church, blaming them for the killing of their beloved Jesus 1500 years after that allegedly happenend.

What's then a 150 years in the grand scheme of things?!

Machinesworking
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:16 pm

TomViolenz wrote: See above

Racism is a fairly recent achievement.

And for much of the time slavery existed in the US, it was did as well in Europe.

They were basically still the same people doing it.
This is one of those false assumptions. Yes, there was free trade between China, India and Europe in 800 AD etc. In no way did that mean that the europeans weren't making racial judgements on the chinese, or that the chinese weren't racially judging the indians etc. Institutionalized racism, as in a way to get votes, or segregation as law, that's a fairly new thing, but racism is as old as mankind. "The tribe next door is obviously cooking and eating their children and that's why they have brain damage and inferior skills", says any tribe anywhere of any race.

Europeans in no way invented racism, it's just us that managed to make it into an art form, with cool uniforms, and rituals. Institutionalized racism is in many ways a modern invention, but to a degree in 400BC you didn't need to write it into law, persians looked different than greeks, had a completely different dress code, architectural design, and government. In fact the village next to yours did, and no, it wasn't hard to convince people to do battle then, and race/ethnicity was of course used to do so.

I think the only thing I would really hang thoroughly on 'white' peoples heads in terms of this is we can't let go of being the most 'important' element, even if it's in a negative light. "OK I guess we're not the #1 race, we're all equal and such, but we are #1 guilty of inventing racism." Mostly the only way we're guilty at this point is through demanding that the world share it's resources with us, with our countries starting off at a higher pay rate and living standard. Economics is and always will be the real inequality worldwide.

On that line though try telling the kid living in a trailer with a welfare mom in rural Montana that he's automagically part of the ruling elite and responsible for racism etc. In the end race is only a distraction.

TomViolenz
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:21 pm

Sorry you are the one with the wrong assumption here.

Before Darwin the concept of races of Humans didn't even exist.
So it can absolutely be said that the Europeans invented racism. And that only after the period of enlightment brought rationalism with it

As long as you believed that God made humans in his image (once!) and that they never changed ( so no inherited changes in the lineage), the concept of race (in Humans) made no sense.

Sure the Europeans might have looked down on the Chinese (and vis-versa), because they looked different, talked funny and didn't pray to the same sky fairy.

But this has nothing to do with racism, which de-humanized lower races as not quite human on the basis of perceived scientific knowledge.

H20nly
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by H20nly » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:37 pm

Machinesworking wrote:try telling the kid living in a trailer with a welfare mom in rural Montana that he's automagically part of the ruling elite and responsible for racism etc. In the end race is only a distraction.
this.

i spent most of my childhood and the early part of my adult life being vilified for my white complexion. i still am... but it's just not on the schoolyard etc.

but hey... in continuing with the pass the buck mentality, maybe i should blame the Dutch and their descendants. :idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in ... ted_States



lowshelf wrote:
H20nly wrote:and African people that were purchased from people of a variety of complexions (often African themselves)
:?:
yes.

when one tribe defeated another... they would often take the survivors as prisoners/slaves. later, when they needed some "cash" or someone came along who made a generous enough offer, they would sell those captives. if the person buying them was a slaver... it was of little concern. "cash" is king.

TomViolenz
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:44 pm

H20nly wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:try telling the kid living in a trailer with a welfare mom in rural Montana that he's automagically part of the ruling elite and responsible for racism etc. In the end race is only a distraction.
this.

i spent most of my childhood and the early part of my adult life being vilified for my white complexion. i still am... but it's just not on the schoolyard etc.

but hey... in continuing with the pass the buck mentality, maybe i should blame the Dutch and their descendants. :idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in ... ted_States



lowshelf wrote:
H20nly wrote:and African people that were purchased from people of a variety of complexions (often African themselves)
:?:
yes.

when one tribe defeated another... they would often take the survivors as prisoners/slaves. later, when they needed some "cash" or someone came along who made a generous enough offer, they would sell those captives. if the person buying them was a slaver... it was of little concern. "cash" is king.
I hear that one group in Nigeria, I think Boko Haram they call themselves, have a good deal on some 200 young females atm. Some may even still be virgins! 8O

Let's go shopping, amirite?!

Because saying the Europeans just took advantage of what was happening anyways is akin to us taking advantage of that bargain!

beats me
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by beats me » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:38 pm

I don’t want to own another human being. That’s one of the many reasons I don’t have kids.

Machinesworking
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:53 pm

TomViolenz wrote:Sorry you are the one with the wrong assumption here.

Before Darwin the concept of races of Humans didn't even exist.
So it can absolutely be said that the Europeans invented racism. And that only after the period of enlightment brought rationalism with it

As long as you believed that God made humans in his image (once!) and that they never changed ( so no inherited changes in the lineage), the concept of race (in Humans) made no sense.

Sure the Europeans might have looked down on the Chinese (and vis-versa), because they looked different, talked funny and didn't pray to the same sky fairy.

But this has nothing to do with racism, which de-humanized lower races as not quite human on the basis of perceived scientific knowledge.
You're wrong.

Darwin didn't invent prejudice, codifying racism did not in any way make it all of a sudden appear. Here's a clue: when you look down on someone because of their skin color, ethnic and religious differences that's racism. When you burn Carthage to the ground because they're an inferior war like race, that's racism, and roughly 2000 years before Darwin.

Even Hitler, the archetype of a racist, did not ascribe to a wholly scientific view on racism. His body guard and chauffeur was 1/4 jewish, this should have rendered him at the very least not fit for that job. Hitlers response was "I decide who is a jew and who is not."

Racism isn't simply a belief in the superiority of your own race, but even that definition would hold that europeans believed themselves to be better than the chinese or africans and visa versa. It is simply not a new idea born of Darwin, anything that can be used to make another race or culture seem inferior has been used since the dawn of recorded history by all the civilizations known to man. And christianity is in particular a european religion, it's tenants apply only to a small portion, of whom many believed at various times, upon meeting other races they didn't like, that they were struck by the mark of Cain, far before Darwin showed up.

I'm actually quite surprised you're trying to defend this odd assumption of yours? There are at least 2600 years worth of quotes from various civilizations spanning all cultures calling other cities/tribes/countries etc, pale/dark/muddy/yellow/ugly (take your pick) primitive people of low moral character and intelligence. That racists got themselves a name and bastardized an emerging science when Darwin showed up in no way made that phenomena all of a sudden appear. The concept that africans for example weren't 100% human didn't all of a sudden appear because the theory of evolution came to be.

TomViolenz
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:53 pm

beats me wrote:I don’t want to own another human being. That’s one of the many reasons I don’t have kids.
I think you are looking at this the wrong way.

The kids own you ;-)

TomViolenz
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:03 pm

Machinesworking wrote:stuff
Well, just repeating your wrong assumptions doesn't make them correct.

Words have meaning, and the word racism has a specific meaning that does not align with just being prejudist against other people for any number of traits. No matter how much you want it to.

And trying to reduce racism to these meanings, does a big disservice in understanding it and as a result the history of modern slavery.

But if you are not willing to read up on the history of racism and slavery and how Darwinism (more specifically its misrepresentation as Eugenics) played into it, this is just a waste of my time here.

I made my point.

Machinesworking
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:17 pm

TomViolenz wrote:
Words have meaning, and the word racism has a specific meaning that does not align with just being prejudist against other people for any number of traits. No matter how much you want it to.


Sorry, I'm almost thinking this is an ESL thing? because people have hated and called each other inferior based on race long before Darwin, and like I said, Hitler based his racial theory (that, is how it's described universally in english) not on skin tone or even blood, but on cultural and ethnic archetypes. Yes he used blood, but to say that he wasn't racist because he allowed someone with 1/4 jewish blood, and that he is now to be considered merely prejudiced etc....

Europe in the 1700's, pre Darwin google search, two seconds to find, on blacks... "His observation that they were like ‘monkeys’ (meaning capable of imitating but not of creating)" And that's not racism because it's pre Darwin how?


You cannot separate racism from prejudice, it's impossible, period. Racism was around long before the american slave trade and Darwin. It's got to be an ESL thing...

stringtapper
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by stringtapper » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:09 pm

Sorry Tom, Machines has you dead to rights on that one.
Unsound Designer

TomViolenz
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by TomViolenz » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:49 am

http://anthropology6030.blogspot.de/200 ... metry.html
On this blog a few voices past enlightenment, but pre Darwin are mentioned. And indeed racism was prevalent and scientists tried to prove the difference of the races.

So no racism pre-Darwin was overstating it, yet I maintain that racism is still a modern, post-enlightenment accomplishment.
The reason why the overstatement came along was because I fell into the trap of attributing evolution to Darwin alone. But though he was the one who came up with the correct theory, others had already been working on it for quite a while. Starting with Mendel and most notably done by people like Lamarck etc.

Interestingly people like Louis Agassiz (mentioned in the blogpost) proposed that race was an atribute of the location people lived in. This idea was dropped, because it might have explained the blacks in Africa, but not the wide distribution of whites. :lol:

All of this came into existence only after enlightenment though. Before that the word of the Bible was the word of God and rational though about the existence of races would have meant doubting it.
(For some reason the superstitionalists think this is an argument in their favor :roll: )
It probably also helped that pre enightenment travel between the regions was very sparse.

Yet as this is also a discussion of slavery, it still needs to be pointed out again that the slavery of old was not done along racial lines, while the modern one, especially the further you go into the present was almost exclusively along them.

The difference is very important as only in the later case, the de-humanization allowed industrialized use of them.

I read only recently btw. that the birth of Capitalism was very closely linked to the colonization of the Americas and that slavery was its first industry.

The reasoning was along the lines, that conquering of new land before was done by nation states, while the gold starved Spain and Portugal of the 15 hundreds send out free agents, which had to finance their endevour via debt, and were allowed to draw profit out of the new lands. Once they found out that the natives are not going to dig up all the gold for them, they started using blacks which they bought from the African slavery system of old (closer resembling the one from roman times). Thus Blacks being the first debt traded commodity. It is an interesting and plausible thought IMO.

PS: I have no idea what ESL means. Please explain your acronyms in the future.

beats me
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by beats me » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:58 pm

Pope Frank just announced that evolution and the big bang theory fit right into Catholicism. 8O "God isn't a magician." :lol:

No word on militarized police with preconceptions yet. :x

TomViolenz
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Re: Today’s police show restraint

Post by TomViolenz » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:09 pm

beats me wrote:Pope Frank just announced that evolution and the big bang theory fit right into Catholicism. 8O "God isn't a magician." :lol:

No word on militarized police with preconceptions yet. :x
This has been pretty much the stance of the Catholic church since the 50s.

Lemaitre the guy who first came up with the big bang theory was even a catholic priest/physicist.


Given that though, I don't understand where "you should still listen to us, because apparently god does not interfer with Evolution or physics, but he cares very much about your morals and he told us to tell you" comes from.

In a way them trying to live in the present (as opposed to in the middle ages like the fundies), makes their position even less supportable.

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