'Removing' drums from samples?

[jackhask]

I know it's not possible to actually "remove" drums from a sample, but what is the best way in Live 9 to minimize the drum sounds in a sample so I can add my own over it?

[Garry Knight]

Someone else might be able to give you a more technical answer but drums contain a lot of white noise, and white noise contains all (or most) frequencies. So it would be extremely difficult to remove the drums without affecting every other frequency. Even if you had a sample with only the drums, and reversed the phase on that sample and mixed it with your sample, it would still remove too many frequencies to be of any use.

[Stromkraft]

I know it's not possible to actually "remove" drums from a sample, but what is the best way in Live 9 to minimize the drum sounds in a sample so I can add my own over it?

Depending on the sample one way, that I've used for uncomplicated loops that were dumped on me to fix, would be to slice the sample both by time and frequency. Then remove the drum hits you want to replace. If there's pro-longed sounds overlapping the cuts you make you'd have to stitch them in from other samples from the same material source and use the bits without hits and use fading loops to remake these sounds where needed to be longer.

Another possible less radical technique would be to use multiband compression and EQ to make the drum hits more quiet and place your hits in their place instead. Then run your drums above that and you probably need to use the same groove so your gain with this one is likely limited to drum sounds, effects control of these and the possibility to add hits where you want them. You have the same issue here that the non-drum sounds would have to sound good when pumping in rhythm or you'd have to remake them.

I haven't tried anything similar myself, but I'd also check out Camel Audio Alchemy which can re-synthesize samples with additive synthesis:

"Alchemy features the most powerful additive synthesis engine with the most accurate resynthesis available".
--Achemy - Ultimate Sample Manipulation Synthesizer

I wouldn't expect it to be easy, but interesting. The results would depend on the type of sample and your skills with this app. There are also other similar alternatives you can dig up, but I know even less about these.

Finally, you could just remake the whole thing instead. I know people that do that sometimes. This is also good for copyright control.

I don't work with samples in this way very often and when I do they are usually original track recordings and not from full mastered material. Someone else will have to fill in the technical details of these methods and alternative ones. Hopefully you get some inspiration from these starting points at least.

[chrk]

http://youtu.be/dD2T21PfmKo

[Stromkraft]

Adding the left out link explanation:

This video explains the concepts of Spectral Casting and Spectral Molding in Sony Creative Software's SpectraLayers Pro.

http://youtu.be/dD2T21PfmKo

[chrk]

Adding the left out link explanation:

Yes, sorry, that was a mix of flippancy and laziness.

I've got SpectralLayers Pro (bought it in bundle with a Sound Forge upgrade), and it - kinda - works. Spectral editing is a great tool for short clips, but for whole songs it's a ton of work. And you may just as well still arrive at an underwater warbling version, because you're looking at the whole spectrally complex stream.

[Stromkraft]

Adding the left out link explanation:

Yes, sorry, that was a mix of flippancy and laziness.

I've got SpectralLayers Pro (bought it in bundle with a Sound Forge upgrade), and it - kinda - works. Spectral editing is a great tool for short clips, but for whole songs it's a ton of work. And you may just as well still arrive at an underwater warbling version, because you're looking at the whole spectrally complex stream.

Just trying to be helpful.

Have you used Alchemy and can compare your experiences?

[chrk]

Just trying to be helpful.

Oh, you were...

Have you used Alchemy and can compare your experiences?

No experience with Alchemy at all, but being a synthesizer, this would be an entierly different approach to pure spectral editing.

[Stromkraft]

Have you used Alchemy and can compare your experiences?

No experience with Alchemy at all, but being a synthesizer, this would be an entierly different approach to pure spectral editing.

Maybe spectral editing is a better alternative for the situation jackhask has? On the face of it, it would seem to be one of the better starting points. Would you, perhaps knowing a bit more about this, agree?

[chrk]

First off, linking to the tutorial on spectral casting/molding was not quite appropriate. This technique (Sony have TM-ed the Molding bit, btw.) is an approach to mixing, you need material on separate tracks for carving frequencies from one out of the other.

But yes, spectral editing like the rest of the Spectral Layers tools or iZotope's RX4 IS a way of tackling jackhask 'problem'. I would exclude Alchemy, as its spectral editor is a tool to manipulate waveforms INSIDE a sampler, not a standalone editor.

But spectral editing is a lot like bitmap drawing, you don't have defined objects to manipulate (if RX4 does better than Spectral Layers at this aspect, I don't know), but you're literally painting over the spectral representation. It's not at all like a filter (EQ) or compressor where you feed a stream into a processor and it processes it way along your automations, or a noiseprint you can store to cancel out most of the noisefloor.

Again, for a whole song it's cumbersome. You have to paint every hit of every drum, hat and cymbal on a wide range of the spectrum (noise as Garry said - but not exactly white noise) trying at the same time not to harm the rest of the signal too much.

[Garry Knight]

chrk is correct. Live-recorded real-world drums might not contain pure white noise but some synthesised percussion sounds might. Emulations of drums played by hitting a skin are likely to get their attack transient from a sharp pitch change, as I understand it, but I've seen some cymbal sounds created from white noise and nothing else.

[Stromkraft]

But yes, spectral editing like the rest of the Spectral Layers tools or iZotope's RX4 IS a way of tackling jackhask 'problem'. I would exclude Alchemy, as its spectral editor is a tool to manipulate waveforms INSIDE a sampler, not a standalone editor
.…
Again, for a whole song it's cumbersome.

OK, thank you. However, I wouldn't exclude Alchemy because it's the end result that counts and Jackhask's question is about a sample. I agree these methods wouldn't be feasible for a whole song, but the sample in this case is probably limited in scope.

That said, I would first try some of the other methods suggested previously. As I usually have this issue with recorded electronic instruments, if at all, I prefer re-recording.

[chrk]

However, I wouldn't exclude Alchemy because it's the end result that counts

It's abtout the tool fitting the task, too. Alchemy is so much more than an editor; you wouldn't use a sledge hammer to put a nail into a wall either.

if at all, I prefer re-recording.

thumbsup!

[Stromkraft]

However, I wouldn't exclude Alchemy because it's the end result that counts

It's abtout the tool fitting the task, too. Alchemy is so much more than an editor; you wouldn't use a sledge hammer to put a nail into a wall either.
!

Yes, I agree as much, but on the other hand maybe once started you scrap the looped sample idea and build something beautiful and different because that sledgehammer is so freakin' fun to work with.

One of my most thoughtful experiences with sampling came when treating vocal samples with now defunct software Infinity (OS 9). The results — which at the time took hours to compute at the University computers — were otherworldly and intricate. I out a vocal in and out came something very different and highly usable.

[YellowNoiseAudio]

I know it's not possible to actually "remove" drums from a sample, but what is the best way in Live 9 to minimize the drum sounds in a sample so I can add my own over it?

This is exactly what DrumExtract is made for, have a look at www.yellownoiseaudio.com.

Here is a video example.