Retaining Configure Mode Parameter MIDI Mappings

[aspsa]

There is no doubt this was asked elsewhere, but I cannot find related posts here. If so, excuse the repetition.

Goal:
Retain a custom Lemur for iPad template's MIDI CC mappings to Configure Mode parameters for some VST/AU plug-in within a saved Instrument Rack.

Problem:
The Configure Mode parameters are retained across the saved <VST/AU plug-in>.adg group file (Instrument Rack), but the the MIDI CC mappings to the Configure Mode parameters are lost.

Steps Taken:
In Live

• 1. Placed a VST/AU plug-in onto a Live Track. In this example, I added a Tone2 Electra2 VST instance to a Live MIDI Track.
  2. Grouped the VST instance to form a Live Instrument Rack.
  3. Within the Instrument Rack, clicked 'Unfold Device Parameters' to reveal Configure Mode.
  4. Clicked 'Plug-In Edit' to reveal Electra2 in its own window.
  5. Clicked 'Configure' ('Configure' box acquires a green background) to enable parameters to be added from Electra2.
  6. Clicked in turn 'VOLUME', 'MODWHEEL', 'LOW', 'MID', and 'HIGH' virtual knobs in the Electra2 display. Each Electra2 parameter in turn was added to the Configure Mode area. See https://tone2.com/html/multilayer.html for a visualization of the Electra2 GUI.
  7. At this point I saved the Instrument Rack as 'Electra2.adg'.

In the Custom Lemur for iPad Template

• 1. Recreated a similar GUI layout for the Electra2 in Lemur, initially focusing only upon the Electra2's 'VOLUME', 'MODWHEEL', etc., parameters.
  2. With the 'Electra2.adg' Instrument Rack in MIDI Map Mode, in turn I selected each Electra2 parameter shown in Configure Mode and touched the corresponding parameter in the Electra2 Lemur template. For example, I clicked the blue-shaded 'VOLUME' parameter in Configure Mode and then touched the virtual 'VOLUME' knob in the Lemur template.
  3. As each mapping was completed, the blue-shaded Electra2 parameter in Configure Mode updated to reveal the MIDI channel and MIDI CC controller number associated with the virtual Electra2 Lemur template knobs. For example, the blue-shaded 'VOLUME' parameter displayed '1/0' (MIDI Channel 01/MIDI CC #01) after the MIDI map was executed.

Upon completing the MIDI CC mappings, I (re)saved the 'Electra2.adg' Instrument Rack. At this point there existed an 'Electra2.adg' Instrument Rack with its current open instance properly MIDI mapped to my custom Electra2 Lemur template.

Unfortunately, it seems that Ableton Live 9 Suite, Version 9.1.7 (64-bit for Mac OS X) is unable to retain the MIDI CC mappings that I created for the Electra2 Configure Mode parameters. When I remove the Instrument Rack from the Live MIDI Track and reopen it, the MIDI mappings are no longer there. The Configure Mode parameters remain.

I hope I missed a crucial step and that this is not an Ableton Live limitation.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

[yur2die4]

A few things to point out.

1. Unfortunately, when loading up the device, Live will not re-introduce the mapped midi data.

2. A common way people map things is through the Control Surface section, there are ways to use scripts etc to have the ability to have 8 parameter knobs which control devices As you hop to them, with a Bank-Select parameter for controlling banks of 8. It sounds like this is Not what you want. Because it is limited to 8 at a time.

3. I'm not sure how powerful ClyphX options are for more mapping, but that could maybe open a door.

4. If you Save a set, you can simply not delete that instrument ever. Then whenever you open that set, you'll always have that one instrument loaded and mapped. But you won't be able to control multiple instances or load new instances.

5. This might be your best option. Basically, instead of mapping Through Live's group device, map within the vst itself. Not all vst's allow cc mapping, but some do. You have to be careful not to map the control you intend to use into the Live set or Live will override it. But if you learn how to map directly to a vst parameter it can often times retain that mapping every time the vst is loaded, with no limitations on the number of mappable parameters.

For option 5, the only trick is to always have that channel 'arm'ed to listen for your control changes. If you arm any other channel in addition, then they'll both possibly be affected. I'm not sure if midi Channel also comes into play. Depends on the vst, but also the limitations of Live's behavior.

6. There is Touchable, which is really super fun, but I think it also does not allow fully what you intend to do. It does have a basic editor though, which is sort of easy to map, and it has the ability to be used to load devices via the Touchable interface which is pretty beat.

[yur2die4]

I actually just got an idea for a max device but I don't know if it already exists, is possible, or would be worth making.

It'd be nice if a max device auto-populated cc#'s to a list lf parameters on a device, sequentially. And then the Max device allowed you to set ranges and stuff.

So let's say you load the max device and tell it cc# 8 and up. And you assign it to a Redux. It'll just start taking every parameter of redux and midi assigning it. So that each parameter will be accessible via cc8, cc9, cc10, etc.

Or if you aimed it at a vst configured device in a rack that had 71 controls, it would maybe do cc8-cc79 or something.

[aspsa]

Thanks for the replies, yur2die4.

> 1. Unfortunately, when loading up the device, Live will not re-introduce the mapped midi data.
Very sad indeed.

> 2. A common way people map things is through the Control Surface section, there are ways to use scripts etc
> to have the ability to > have 8 parameter knobs which control devices As you hop to them, with a Bank-Select
> parameter for controlling banks of 8. It sounds like this is Not what you want. Because it is limited to 8 at a time.
True; I do not prefer this approach. It breaks one's workflow when (a) editing patches or (b) recording a disparate set of parameters in real-time for host automation.

> 3. I'm not sure how powerful ClyphX options are for more mapping, but that could maybe open a door.
I am unfamiliar with ClyphX, but I will check it out at http://www.macableton.com/hardware-revi ... lyphx.html.

> 4. If you Save a set, you can simply not delete that instrument ever. Then whenever you open that set, you'll always
> have that one instrument loaded and mapped. But you won't be able to control multiple instances or load new instances.
To this end, after I mapped my Lemur template to Electra2, I saved the Live MIDI Track in which 'Electra2.adg' resided as a Live 'Template' - in this case, simply a one-track Live session. I was hoping that the MIDI mappings would be retained, but that did not work either.

> 5. This might be your best option. Basically, instead of mapping Through Live's group device, map within the vst itself.
> Not all vst's > allow cc mapping, but some do. You have to be careful not to map the control you intend to use into the
> Live set or Live will override it. But if you learn how to map directly to a vst parameter it can often times retain that mapping
> every time the vst is loaded, with no limitations on the number of mappable parameters.
Yes, and I had tried that originally. Actually, when I first attempted this it did not work, but that was my fault. I neglected to ensure the Lemur template objects were mapped to the proper MIDI Channel. Unfortunately, again, there is no way to my knowledge of preserving the MIDI mappings created through the VST's/AU's MIDI Learn capability. As before I tried saving my work as a Live template, but the mappings were not retained.

> For option 5, the only trick is to always have that channel 'arm'ed to listen for your control changes. If you arm any
> other channel in addition, then they'll both possibly be affected. I'm not sure if midi Channel also comes into play.
> Depends on the vst, but also the limitations of Live's behavior.

> 6. There is Touchable, which is really super fun, but I think it also does not allow fully what you intend to do. It does
> have a basic editor though, which is sort of easy to map, and it has the ability to be used to load devices via the Touchable
> interface which is pretty beat.
I use Lemur, which has similar capabilities as Touchable, but the fundamental problem remains. It does not seem possible to retain MIDI mappings between Lemur template objects and their mapped VST/AU parameters using Ableton Live. So, in effective, I am left with a highly user-friendly GUI in Lemur that I am forced to remap with every instance of the VST/AU it targets. Considering your typical VST/AU synthesizer has a couple of hundred exposed parameters available for mapping, this becomes an impractical solution and counterproductive to one's workflow.

It looks like I will have to buckle down with MAX and the M4L LOM to find a work around, if one is possible.

[yur2die4]

I am not sure if you've properly interpreted what I mean for number 5?

Instead of using Configure of midi mapping in Live, you do if inside of the vst. Not all vsts support actuall cc mapping. But when they do it is really fun because you can just load it and go!! You don't even need to place it inside a Rack, and if is much more preset friendly.


Edit: yeah, it has a feature called "MIDI Learn". There is probably more info in the manual.

I think you just right click a knob in the vst interface and do midi learn.

[aspsa]

> I am not sure if you've properly interpreted what I mean for number 5?
Yes, we are on the same page. Use a VST's/AU's MIDI Learn feature directly when mapping to an external hardware or software controller versus first the Configure Mode option. Unfortunately, this requires remapping every time, also. With tens to hundreds of possible mappings available for most VSTs/AUs, this is impractical.

Thanks again for your reply.

[yur2die4]

Many vsts actually retain that data in a file. So every time toy load the vst itself, it automatically uses the CC's which you've assigned. I think they even mention which file does mappings on their site.