Question for Electric Guitarists

[EasyWorkflow]

One of the reasons I went with Ableton, was that I noticed a majority of Ableton certified instructors in NYC are also accomplished musicians in many genres of music. I originally thought this DAW was mainly used by younger people who create EDM and do not play instruments. I was completely wrong because these musicians serious gigging musicians and session platers. Once I learned the power of Ableton and realized the what could happen if you truly master the software and combine Ableton with your instrument of choice, you have the ability to create truly mind blowing music and the potential is endless. I currently own Push which is my only instrument that is also MIDI controller. . I also have a nylon string guitar with a build in pickup so I can either mic the guitar or go direct into my interface which is a Focusrite 212. But no MIDI.

I am planning to buy an electric guitar and have a few questions for guitarists who are already laying down tracks in Ableton. Seems like there are a few options that I can think of and I know most people will tell me to experiemnt to find my "sound" and that's cool. But I have to believe there are a number of guitarists on this site that already figured out the best way to get their "tone" into Ableton and I am curious what you found to be the easiest and best sounding method.

Off the top of my head, I can think of 5 different scenarios for laying down heavy riffs (think Rob Zombie) and was wondering which of these five if you had tried them all, gave you the best results:

1.) Go direct into your interface ( I have a Scarlett 212) and use plugins like Guitar Rig to add different amp and cabinet models after track is laid down. The reason I think this method might make sense is that you are not committed to a specific tone and can find the right combination of amp/cabinet sounds and add effects like chorus, delay, reverb later during the mix.

2.) Micing a tube amp amp and adding effects later in the mix using software in Ableton. The only drawback is that you are locked into the guitar tone bit have flexibility with the effects during the mix. I checked out a 1 watt tube amp at Guitar Center that had a sick saturated marshall tone and the volume was for bedroom use.

3.) Micing a tube amp and front ending it with analog hardware stomp boxes for effects.. Drawback is you are locked into both sound and effects.

4.) Going direct into interface but front ending with stomp boxes like an Ibanez tube screamer so you have a distorted or saturated tone and adding effects later in mix.

5.) Pickup one of the new modeling guitars that have built in sounds from acoustic to metal and also have alternate tunings for trying out new creative ideas. I always wanted one of these Taylor guitars but they are out of my price range http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/electric/t5z Or going with a Line 6 modeling guitar which has too many cool tones to list and just go direct into interface.

6.) THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION I HAVE. I am basically going to use two controllers/instruments for getting my musical ideas into Ableton. One I already own which is Push. The second instrument/controller that I would LOVE to use is my guitar for both audio and MIDI. I saw online the new wireless MIDI pickup made by Fishman called Tripleplay. check it out http://www.fishman.com/tripleplay It's so freaken cool and I watched the videos on youtube and Fishman's website and they say this is the closest anyone has ever gotten to almost perfect tracking and zero latency. I have been playing guitar for 37 years, and know the fretboard inside/out, so this would be my ultimate controller as I could use it for audio and MIDI. HAS ANY GUITARISTS ON THIS SITE SUCCESSFULLY USED THE TRIPLE PLAY PICKUP? I do realize I digressed a bit from my question about getting audio into Ableton, but the guitar I purchase may be a different model if I know that musicians have successfully used the triple play pickup.

Thanks for reading this long post and if you are a guitarist, you totally understand why a newbie with Ableton, but a semi pro guitarist, would like to shorten the learning curve as far as laying down tracks because most of my time will be spent learning Ableton which is a very overwhelming project and know it will take me a full year to really understand how to use this software.


Peace

BobbyD

[Angstrom]

I'm going to ramble a bit and not answer your questions directly!

I'm going to suggest an alternative signal routing aproach.
With a direct tracking of your raw signal into your interface, if you have acceptable latency for playing through a sim like guitar rig you can still (later) run that dry unprocessed guitar out through an amp into a room and record that.
Like : record a bunch of takes in the traditional home-recordist's spare bedroom on headphones. So the guitar is recorded dry and monitored through the track effects. You can record at 3am and edit the resultant mess of takes into a coherent single take, then later set up an "effects" room with mics and let the DAW play the dry (edited) guitar out ... through your analogue pedals and amp and into the room and the mics. Record the mic channels onto new tracks.

That way you all get the convenience of tracking quietly at night and testing virtual amp sounds out to choose what you roughly want (a small cabinent, or off center mics, roomy, boxy, whatever), but you can also then edit the raw guitar takes precisely and then later when you play that edit out you will capture the juicy sound of a real amp and cabinet and your favourite boutique pedals, etc. You can even go and hire a room, or a set of mics. You will be able to hire the mics for just a single day, because you'll already be confident you have the take.

But that's just me, I am an abominable guitarist and will use every trick available to save money and get the right noise out.

[ImNotDedYet]

I don't play guitar, but I have a Rhodes piano, which although is technically a piano, is very much like a guitar in that it has pickups for each note, needs an amp, is output at Hi-Z impedance, etc.

I also have a small, 5w tube amp from Blackstar (HT-5R) which is perfect for my small place (and a great tube amp with nice crunch control as well as nice tone for clean and a decent reverb) along with a couple effect pedals to run the Rhodes through.

My workflow is as such:

1) record a take dry, bypassing effects, then use either Amplitube 3 or Guitar Rig for amp/cab/stompbox to get tone (rarely used unless I want a stompbox option that I prefer over my current stuff - Moogerfooger MF-108M Chorus, EHX Small Stone Nano and soon to be Fulltone Supa Trem 2 along with a Moogerfooger MF-104M SZ delay)
2) record a take wet with effects from my external pedals, but straight from effects into interface, then use either Amplitube 3 or Guitar Rig for amp/cab to get tone
3) record a take through effects and the HT-5R. The HT-5R actually has an instrument level output with either a single or 4x cab emulation, so I can take the output from the amp directly into my interface without having to worry about mic'ing it. (I live on a busy street and have thin-nish walls, micing would be a major pain) I'm finding I use this most often. Amplitube and Guitar Rig are nice, but I think there's just something about going through an actual tube amp that I prefer when playing.

Once I get my takes recorded, takes setup (with amp sims/stompboxes, etc) for the tone I'm looking for, I compare and contrast them to see which is best, perhaps layer, etc.

Regarding the Fishman...my buddy, who's a major guitar head has a guitar synth with MIDI capabilities and (not the Fishman) and absolutely loves it. I'd try to buy the Fishman from a place that allows returns (Guitar Center, Sweetwater, Musicians Friend) to make sure the latency, etc. isn't bothersome. There's nothing worse than playing something and having that little bit of latency driving you bonkers. But if you can find something that minimizes latency and you can tolerate, sounds like a great way to get your MIDI into Live. I love Push, and sometimes entering MIDI into it for music and not drum/perc content is fun because I don't know the chords and wind up throwing something I'd never think to play on actual keys, but I'd go nuts using only Push to get my MIDI into my DAW.

[Tarekith]

Forget the Fishman, this is by far the best tracker I've used for guitar MIDI and it integrates with Ableton nicely too:

http://jamorigin.com/products/midi-guitar/

[allanaceflyer]

blackstar ht5-r here emulated out or mic it if you can just take it somewhere or just do it .
real valves lots of great tones small but loud(small gig) too or just into live emulated out montior off no latency silent if not your phones are too loud turn them down.

[tedlogan]

Forget the Fishman, this is by far the best tracker I've used for guitar MIDI and it integrates with Ableton nicely too:

http://jamorigin.com/products/midi-guitar/

I had no idea this software existed. I've been thinking about playing synths with my guitar for a while and just assumed that you either need a MIDI guitar or track Tuner's histogram somehow. The latter would be cheaper, but I don't want to wait on Ableton to implement that.

And you say it tracks quite well? The thought of playing some peculiar Bazille patches with guitar is making me a bit giddy.

Thanks for the link, looking forward to trying this out! Gonna do some YouTube research and check out the demo.

[Tarekith]

It tracks better than any hardware I've tried. There's an iOS version too.

[mmorgan]

For recording electric guitar I typically go through one of my mic pres that has a Hi-Z input. I always record the signal dry then process with a plugin...currently I use either the Scuffham S-Gear or a chain I have developed using Live's audio effects. The latter is for cleaner type sounds. The Scuffham is my favorite guitar effects plug (I also have Guitar Rig but seldom use it), the Scuffham on the other hand is fan-effing-tastic. Very sensitive to playing style.

For acoustic guitar I will use the DI mentioned above and also I will mic to two tracks, again both dry.

Agree on the JamOrigin MIDI controller...by far the most bang for the buck. I have the Fishman and honestly just didn't care for it...if you do purchase it make sure the physical set up will work with your electric guitar. My PRS strat style didn't work so I bought a cheap Telecaster to use it. I also have an older Axon AX100 MK II - it is a great unit but you need to have a guitar with a hex pickup so it is kind of pricey. All in all JamOrigin is my preference, it is part of my default project.

[EasyWorkflow]

Wow...lots of great info and I am going to read every post in detail later tonight. I also briefly saw the response about a different MIDI guitar controller I never even heard of. Going to check that link later when I get home. I am in my "study" mode now and going through a module learning about audio and MIDI clips. I know no little about Ableton and it feels so overwhelming at the moment. Yet I know that I must pay my dues and study before the real fun starts. But even learning is fun because I feel like I am accomplishing something everyday.

Appreciate all of you who take your valuable time to answer a newbies question.

God Bless

BobbyD

[lachrimae]

Ok, I'm a little surprised about the responses regarding Midi Guitar VST vs Triple Play because I also have both and there is no comparison between the two: Triple Play's accuracy and responsiveness is light-years better.

I used Midi Guitar for about a year before picking up TP and it definitely gets the job done, but be prepared to correct more of the notes because it misses notes on subtle and/or fast passages. In fact, I don't even have Midi Guitar installed on the new PC I recently built (not needed).

Just be sure you have a guitar that will easily work with TP (I'm using my Strat).

[EasyWorkflow]

Forget the Fishman, this is by far the best tracker I've used for guitar MIDI and it integrates with Ableton nicely too:

http://jamorigin.com/products/midi-guitar/

Holy smokes bro....I just checked only one video of the many videos on the Jamorigin website and was floored at the tracking, accuracy and synth sound that this guitarist was getting. check it out. http://jamorigin.com/portfolio-item/tom-quale/ Granted, that is one heck of a guitar player but tracking is tracking and for $99, I am going to invest in this software which is only $99. . But another poster had the following to say and he has used both products

Ok, I'm a little surprised about the responses regarding Midi Guitar VST vs Triple Play because I also have both and there is no comparison between the two: Triple Play's accuracy and responsiveness is light-years better.

I used Midi Guitar for about a year before picking up TP and it definitely gets the job done, but be prepared to correct more of the notes because it misses notes on subtle and/or fast passages. In fact, I don't even have Midi Guitar installed on the new PC I recently built (not needed).

Just be sure you have a guitar that will easily work with TP (I'm using my Strat).

 
Lachrimae.....do you use triple play when playing live gigs or just for laying tracks at home? I have this idea about playing live with Ableton and would love to know if I am living in fantasy land or if the following scenario is a simple signal flow. I want to route the audio signal from guitar pickups into a tube amp and also at the same time use the Fishman Triple play to control synths and other cool sounds in Ableton. I realize I am getting a little ahead of myself now because I am still a complete newbie and have too much to learn before thinking about gigs. Just wondering if this sounds like a doable stage setup. And a big thanks to everyone else who took the time to post their setup and recommendations. I am sure I will be asking you more questions regarding the different setups you suggested.

This forum rocks

BobbyD.

[EasyWorkflow]

Three more Jamorigin videos from their website:

http://jamorigin.com/portfolio-item/georgi-stanchev/ This is sick

http://jamorigin.com/portfolio-item/chuck-dietz/ This is even sicker.

http://jamorigin.com/portfolio-item/paul-driessen/ Not sick but a very cool demo of guitar playing piano


If you play guitar, and these videos don't get you excited and pumped up, someone needs to check your pulse because you might be dead. Of course I am kidding because some guitar player are happy to play three chord country songs. But my guess is if you are a guitar player using Ableton, than you are at the cusp of technology and you will have to have this $99 piece of software. I could't live without it and I don't even own it.

Please post a URL to any songs, sounds or riffs you create using this software.

And a HUGE thanks to Tarekith for turning the community on to this amazing piece of software, Also remember that Lachrimae used both jamorigin and the triple play pickup and he says triple play is light years ahead of jamorigin. Unless he works for Fishman, I have to trust his judgement so I am going to have to buy both. Guitaristse already know the fretboard so why would any guitarist try to learn keys unless they really want to learn a new instrument. That's why I love Push because once you learn one pattern, you have play in any key or mode and with a twist of a knob go from a c major scale to an e flat harmonic minor.

Enough from me,

Enjoy you music and have fun in the process.

BobbyD

[tedlogan]

http://www.artiphon.com/ this seems pretty cool too - a new MIDI guitar-like instrument:

"Earlier this morning, Tennessee-based Artiphon hit global crowdfunding platform Kickstarter to raise $75,000 for INSTRUMENT 1.The eye catching musical instrument surpassed its initial goal within only 5 hours and skyrocketed to over $100,000 thanks to nearly 300 backers."
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2015/03 ... ckstarter/

I've emailed them and they've confirmed it has polyphonic aftertouch. Which is not implemented in Live yet, but still...for $300 I'm interested, as I cannot afford an Eigenharp (thousands of dollars).

I'd love to try one out.

[H20nly]

*bookmark*

[lachrimae]

Hehe, no I definitely don't work for and am not affiliated with Fishman in any way (paid full price for my TP). I think the main factor that can't be overcome with software is that there is a TP sensor for each string so it knows which string the sound is coming from and is therefore able to be much more accurate.

I decided to add Midi Guitar to my VST Folder again so I could give you a little comparison of both apps. One thing I want to say though is that I could have spent more time tweaking the Midi Guitar settings so that it would be as accurate as possible and I don't want to mis-represent the full capabilities of that VST, though there is something to be said for the fact that you don't have to do any tweaking on the TP (once you initially set the correct sensor height).

Midi Guitar settings for this test are in polyphonic mode with pitch bend enabled since TP always works that way. If your material doesn't require either of those you can disable it in Midi Guitar in order to improve the accuracy (again, I prefer the ease of not having to adjust anything with TP when changing styles).

I recorded the guitar parts in 1 take (sorry, it's sloppy as hell but definitely a real-world "live" example) and used the NI Scarbee Mark 1 from Kontakt as the VST instrument. TP has the option to run through their VST app which acts as a VST host, but I chose to do this test with direct Midi (TP Midi to DAW, directly to a Midi track with Kontakt loaded).

https://clyp.it/clcmksr2

Let me know if anybody wants to download my crappy audio file so you can put it in your DAW and adjust the midi guitar settings for better accuracy. Again, I don't want to mis-represent Midi Guitar's capabilities but, for me personally, TP is much more connected to what I'm trying to express on the guitar.

Edit: fixed clipping in audio file