Getting 100% wet from Send effects?

[driven]

Newb question here, but hopefully it'll help other newbs to get this sorted.

I'm setting up a template for deep house mixing. Basically, picture Session View with a bunch of clips on audio tracks and a few send/return tracks for effects. I'd like to use each track's Send knob as a dry/wet knob for the respective effect. But the way this works out is that I can only get a max of 50% wet on each effect.

I really don't want to have to re-route things ("Send Only", for example) in the middle of a set just to go full wet. And I want to avoid effects on individual tracks as that quickly becomes unwieldy.

Is there a workaround for this?

[Airyck]

Make the sends "Pre-Fader" turn the send up and the channel volume of the same track all the way down.

[driven]

Make the sends "Pre-Fader" turn the send up and the channel volume of the same track all the way down.

...And then use the volume fader for that track or the Dry/Wet (or [whatever]) control for each Send effect track to mix in wet/dry. Then when I want to use the faders again, I gotta turn down Send and turn up the fader and somehow make that transition smooth and unnoticeable to the audience

That works, technically. But it's too clumsy for stage work.

I want this:

Leave track volume faders untouched, use Send as a wet/dry knob

• track Send = -inf (full counter-clockwise) = 0% wet
• track Send = -20.0 db (straight up) = 50% wet
• track Send = -0 db (full clockwise) = 100% wet

I'm getting the sense that this is not possible, and it's a basic, basic function on hardware dj mixers. (Imagine if you had a hardware mixer that required you to rewire it back and forth, on stage, just to get a 100% wet signal!) Essentially, we have bussed effects that only go to a max of 50% wet.

Is it possible to remap the Send knobs? Or (better) do some trickery on the Return tracks?

edit: Seeing something about "magic sends" in my searching; looking into it.

edit2: Looks like it's a hack to toggle between 100% dry or 100% wet. Clever, but still not what I'm looking for. Well maybe I don't feel so bad for not figuring this out on my own...

[Da hand]

Make the sends "Pre-Fader" turn the send up and the channel volume of the same track all the way down.

I want this:

Leave track volume faders untouched, use Send as a wet/dry knob

• track Send = -inf (full counter-clockwise) = 0% wet
• track Send = -20.0 db (straight up) = 50% wet
• track Send = -0 db (full clockwise) = 100% wet

Airyck had the right answer. You may "want" all these things above, but how do you propose to get rid of the sound on the original channel that you are sending to your master? If you want a 100% wet send effect, you have to find a way to kill the sound of the original channel. Now you don't have to do it with the channel fader, you can insert and map other volume controls on each channel to handle that and leave the channel fader alone.

Otherwise, what you want is an insert effects solution like on DJ mixers.

I'm getting the sense that this is not possible, and it's a basic, basic function on hardware dj mixers. (Imagine if you had a hardware mixer that required you to rewire it back and forth, on stage, just to get a 100% wet signal!)

Actually, you are a bit off there... DJ mixers don't have this "magic send" solution. DJ mixer effects are insert effects not send effects. And yes, in a way you do change the routing while you play - you select (with a knob) the channel you want the effect to be inserted on. For example on the Pioneer Mixers the SOUND COLOR EFFECT is an insert before the EQ and then the SOUND BEAT EFFECT is inserted right after the EQ on each channel.

Check out the schematic on page 27 of the DJM-850

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox ... 081312.pdf

[driven]

Airyck had the right answer. You may "want" all these things above, but how do you propose to get rid of the sound on the original channel that you are sending to your master? If you want a 100% wet send effect, you have to find a way to kill the sound of the original channel. Now you don't have to do it with the channel fader, you can insert and map other volume controls on each channel to handle that and leave the channel fader alone.

Here's what I propose:

A wet/dry knob controls the ratio of the track to the effect. Simple. I've wanted this since day 1. I don't see how wanting a bussed 0-100% wet/dry is an unreasonable request of such powerful software.

I'd even be happy with a mode switch, "Send/Return" vs "Bussed Effects", that changes the Send knob into a Wet/Dry knob.

Otherwise, what you want is an insert effects solution like on DJ mixers.

Fine, I want a bussed insert effects solution like on DJ mixers. I don't care what it's called. This should be simple with software.

Sheesh, I guess just knowing a bussed, 0-100% wet is impossible** is helpful.

** without clumsy kludges that aren't feasible for live performances, that is

Actually, you are a bit off there... DJ mixers don't have this "magic send" solution. DJ mixer effects are insert effects not send effects. And yes, in a way you do change the routing while you play - you select (with a knob) the channel you want the effect to be inserted on. For example on the Pioneer Mixers the SOUND COLOR EFFECT is an insert before the EQ and then the SOUND BEAT EFFECT is inserted right after the EQ on each channel.

Great idea. They could do that. It's software.

I love Ableton Live, but this rigid, limiting paradigm is massively frustrating to me.

"You'll take your 50% wet and LIKE IT because that's the way it's always been."

[scheffkoch]

...how about using the a/b setting?...

[Angstrom]

"Ableton magic sends", ye olde phase inversion tricke

Like this

http://youtu.be/_llCKhfPycA

[driven]

...how about using the a/b setting?...

Can you be more specific? Might be a great option -- I'm trying to use an iPad with Touch-Able for my controller, and the simpler the better.

[driven]

"Ableton magic sends", ye olde phase inversion tricke

Like this

http://youtu.be/_llCKhfPycA

I looked into it, thought it was the answer, but it turns out to be a hot mess. Doesn't allow for a continuous dry/wet sweep. You pretty much have to set it up to toggle full wet or full dry or you get lost in the knob twisting.

[siliconarc]

if you're not using the crossfader, you can use it as a wet/dry control.
set it up like this (not shown: reverb device on the return track = 100% wet):

[gaijin1717]

I'm not in front of Live right now so can't test this, and it may be way off, but....

Could you midi map the rotary knob you're using for the send control to the volume fader as well, and then adjust the min/max values so they're inverted for the volume fader, meaning that as you increase the send you're decreasing the volume? Then, also adjust the midi parameters so that the volume fader is only affected when it's turned almost hard right. It might be an ugly change from 50% wet to 100% wet with 0 volume, but it might be better than what you have now....which is nothing.

[driven]

if you're not using the crossfader, you can use it as a wet/dry control.
set it up like this (not shown: reverb device on the return track = 100% wet):

Very interesting. I got this working well, it just may take some doing to wrap my brain around it. It's a different way of thinking.

I'll keep it as Plan B. Thanks!

[driven]

I'm not in front of Live right now so can't test this, and it may be way off, but....

Could you midi map the rotary knob you're using for the send control to the volume fader as well, and then adjust the min/max values so they're inverted for the volume fader, meaning that as you increase the send you're decreasing the volume? Then, also adjust the midi parameters so that the volume fader is only affected when it's turned almost hard right. It might be an ugly change from 50% wet to 100% wet with 0 volume, but it might be better than what you have now....which is nothing.

I feel like that could work, but I really want to keep the flexibility of being able to add tracks on the fly. Does the "Default Audio Track" function preserve MIDI mapping? I have Touch-Able working great, but haven't messed with any custom settings.

[Angstrom]

"Ableton magic sends", ye olde phase inversion tricke

Like this

http://youtu.be/_llCKhfPycA

I looked into it, thought it was the answer, but it turns out to be a hot mess. Doesn't allow for a continuous dry/wet sweep. You pretty much have to set it up to toggle full wet or full dry or you get lost in the knob twisting.

hmm, that's not been my experience.
But I don't actually use the method in that video - I use a rack on the return channel with two parallel chains, one chain has the phase inverter in it and the other chain has the effect in it. I can send to it with a continuous fade, it's not linear , but it is continuous

YMMV

[driven]

hmm, that's not been my experience.
But I don't actually use the method in that video - I use a rack on the return channel with two parallel chains, one chain has the phase inverter in it and the other chain has the effect in it. I can send to it with a continuous fade, it's not linear , but it is continuous

YMMV

Ok, thanks. Will give this approach a try.