Reaktor 6 is here

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Angstrom
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by Angstrom » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:18 pm

gomi wrote:I think what you are looking for is this
https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/oscillot/
I think what you are looking for it the very text I wrote, you quoted, but did not read.

probably worth reading what I wrote
the idea that MAX users could build the high level Reaktor style functional "blocks", inside Max, inside of Ableton.
I don't think increasing layers of abstraction is a good strategy. It's been proven to be the case.
Unfortunately as Oscillot users have found out despite intense effort from the developers - that strategy is a house of cards.
Oscillot is made by the absolute best MAX programmers with the best insight into what M4L can do, The pinnacle of the M4L userbase ... and it's resource hungry and unstable. Even unusable.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=212353&p=1673461

So the outcome of providing a pile of capacitors and resistors to users and saying "Make your own modular" - is proven to be not as good as the completed filter module.
I don't want to be Bob Moog troubleshooting ladder filter components, I want to be Klaus Schulze patching reliable modules.

I think that Ableton Live already has "Blocks" , they are called "Devices". But rather than allow users to connect them together, users were invited to try to recreate them from the bits.


Please note: I'm not criticising Christian, I know he's doing the best he can. But that itself is indicative of the problem

mcnelson
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by mcnelson » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:11 pm

Angstrom wrote:Imma point out that in 2007 I made this rough image indicating what I hoped any Ableton Live modular solution might be like

Image

synth lego
recognisable existing components made more powerful by allowing visual routing, like a virtual modular system.

Instead Ableton opted for a low level IDE theoretically capable of doing nearly everything, with the idea that MAX users could build the high level Reaktor style functional "blocks", inside Max, inside of Ableton.
Unfortunately as Oscillot users have found out despite intense effort from the developers - that strategy is a house of cards. Any shift in the lower levels will cause a collapse of the High Level elements. With such stratification no single stakeholder can feel in control of the development pathway and fix a bug. Even "Why doesn't my filter work?" is out of your hands.

yes, I may have mentioned that this was a bad strategy before.
I know I'm repeating myself. :|
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tone61
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by tone61 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:12 pm

Here is one example of what you can do with blocks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9uj1kZc3ss

ivarin
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by ivarin » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:37 pm

Angstrom wrote:
gomi wrote:I think what you are looking for is this
https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/oscillot/
I think what you are looking for it the very text I wrote, you quoted, but did not read.

probably worth reading what I wrote
the idea that MAX users could build the high level Reaktor style functional "blocks", inside Max, inside of Ableton.
I don't think increasing layers of abstraction is a good strategy. It's been proven to be the case.
Unfortunately as Oscillot users have found out despite intense effort from the developers - that strategy is a house of cards.
Oscillot is made by the absolute best MAX programmers with the best insight into what M4L can do, The pinnacle of the M4L userbase ... and it's resource hungry and unstable. Even unusable.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=212353&p=1673461

So the outcome of providing a pile of capacitors and resistors to users and saying "Make your own modular" - is proven to be not as good as the completed filter module.
I don't want to be Bob Moog troubleshooting ladder filter components, I want to be Klaus Schulze patching reliable modules.

I think that Ableton Live already has "Blocks" , they are called "Devices". But rather than allow users to connect them together, users were invited to try to recreate them from the bits.


Please note: I'm not criticising Christian, I know he's doing the best he can. But that itself is indicative of the problem
EXACLTY (sorry caps)

nevertheless i found Reaktor6 quite usable and responsive in this case, hassling 20 mins with it gave me promising results with decent CPU load. what i noticed is that community is extremely active there, first patches and modules are already in their User Library. so Live stays as a great sequencer/mixer/host/sampler/performance tool which is extremely of use in combo with such a brilliant VSTs as a Reaktor or anything NI (or anything...)

i gave up hoping they'd become modular by itself sometime. m4l is the answer for them (which is disappointing)

beats me
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by beats me » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Machinesworking wrote:I'm with Beats Me, it looks great, I'm excited about Blocks, but NI typically give you no discount for upgrading a part of Ultimate before the next version of Komplete is out. So you spend $99 now and $199-299 later when it's time to upgrade Ultimate. :x

Too many times on forums do I read someone moaning about how they got dick from NI in terms of discount for upgrading x software out of sync with their upgrade cycle. I wouldn't recommend anyone owning Komplete buying the upgrade, unless you take what I said into account and still think it's worth it to have Reaktor earlier than Komplete 11 comes out.

I’m not demanding a deeper discount, but I kind of laugh when I read “If you own KOMPLETE KONTROL S-Series keyboard, MASCHINE 2 software, or a previous version of REAKTOR you can upgrade for $99!”

I’m waiting for my “Since you own KOMPLETE 10 ULTIMATE, and a KOMPLETE KONTROL S-Series keyboard, and MASCHINE STUDIO, and a TRAKTOR S4 controller then, holy shit bro, here’s your free upgrade link!” email.

v00d00ppl
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by v00d00ppl » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:19 pm

@Ivarin thanks for the report so far. Can you post demos when you have the chance?
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ivarin
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by ivarin » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:09 pm

v00d00ppl wrote:@Ivarin thanks for the report so far. Can you post demos when you have the chance?
here's the very first result of getting acquainted with it https://space.zeo.net/g/4ec5v (20 mins after download)

Emanresu0891
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by Emanresu0891 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:54 pm

Is there a demo of this?
Are Native Instruments one of those companies that wait on a cracking team to provide a demo?

I guess they expect people to buy this just based on the videos and the good trust worthy NI name?

fishmonkey
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by fishmonkey » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:50 am

Angstrom wrote:Unfortunately as Oscillot users have found out despite intense effort from the developers - that strategy is a house of cards. Oscillot is made by the absolute best MAX programmers with the best insight into what M4L can do, The pinnacle of the M4L userbase ... and it's resource hungry and unstable. Even unusable.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=212353&p=1673461

So the outcome of providing a pile of capacitors and resistors to users and saying "Make your own modular" - is proven to be not as good as the completed filter module.
I don't want to be Bob Moog troubleshooting ladder filter components, I want to be Klaus Schulze patching reliable modules.

I think that Ableton Live already has "Blocks" , they are called "Devices". But rather than allow users to connect them together, users were invited to try to recreate them from the bits.

Please note: I'm not criticising Christian, I know he's doing the best he can. But that itself is indicative of the problem
it's pretty clear by now that M4L has not turned out to be a winner for getting solid reliable new devices into the Live ecosystem.

it's a great tool for people who have a DIY mindset, especially people who have the skills, time and knowledge to create something that fills one of their own niches.

unfortunately i don't think that paying money for M4L devices is a good investment or model, as the system is too changeable and unreliable. when i do pay money for a M4L device, i do it with the understanding that the device may stop working and not be supported for very long, even if the developer seems to be top-notch...
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mmorgan
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by mmorgan » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:18 am

beats me wrote:
I’m waiting for my “Since you own KOMPLETE 10 ULTIMATE, and a KOMPLETE KONTROL S-Series keyboard, and MASCHINE STUDIO, and a TRAKTOR S4 controller then, holy shit bro, here’s your free upgrade link!” email.
I'm with beats...but without the TRAKTOR.
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koranek
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by koranek » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:48 am

Angstrom wrote"
I don't think increasing layers of abstraction is a good strategy. It's been proven to be the case.
There is a software development saying that "All problems can be solved by one more layer of indirection."

The Koranek Corollary is "All problems are caused by one more layer of indirection."
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Machinesworking
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:57 pm

beats me wrote: I’m not demanding a deeper discount, but I kind of laugh when I read “If you own KOMPLETE KONTROL S-Series keyboard, MASCHINE 2 software, or a previous version of REAKTOR you can upgrade for $99!”

I’m waiting for my “Since you own KOMPLETE 10 ULTIMATE, and a KOMPLETE KONTROL S-Series keyboard, and MASCHINE STUDIO, and a TRAKTOR S4 controller then, holy shit bro, here’s your free upgrade link!” email.
I hear you, I've owned Absynth 2, used it to upgrade to Komplete 2, on Ultimate now, own Rig Kontrol, owned Kore hardware, and Maschine Studio. No other part of my music studio besides Apple have sucked in as much of my cash as NI. I get the same discount as someone who just bought Ultimate on sale...

For what it's worth IK Multimedia have this completely fucked up rewards system with "Jam Points", and the upgrade to Amplitude 4 is a convoluted mess:
It's got an introductory price and they think that's good enough of a discount for like 90% of the users...
If you bought it on sale you get no discount.
Bought it from another end user no discount.
Used your Jam Points for another purchase? No discount.
Bought it less than two years ago after they dropped their price? No discount.

Buleriachk
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by Buleriachk » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:25 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
For what it's worth IK Multimedia have this completely fucked up rewards system with "Jam Points", and the upgrade to Amplitude 4 is a convoluted mess:
It's got an introductory price and they think that's good enough of a discount for like 90% of the users...
If you bought it on sale you get no discount.
Bought it from another end user no discount.
Used your Jam Points for another purchase? No discount.
Bought it less than two years ago after they dropped their price? No discount.

Not only that, but they won't even let me use all my jampoints to upgrade. Only "30% worth". For that, they can keep their AT4...

beats me
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by beats me » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:36 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
beats me wrote: I’m not demanding a deeper discount, but I kind of laugh when I read “If you own KOMPLETE KONTROL S-Series keyboard, MASCHINE 2 software, or a previous version of REAKTOR you can upgrade for $99!”

I’m waiting for my “Since you own KOMPLETE 10 ULTIMATE, and a KOMPLETE KONTROL S-Series keyboard, and MASCHINE STUDIO, and a TRAKTOR S4 controller then, holy shit bro, here’s your free upgrade link!” email.
I hear you, I've owned Absynth 2, used it to upgrade to Komplete 2, on Ultimate now, own Rig Kontrol, owned Kore hardware, and Maschine Studio. No other part of my music studio besides Apple have sucked in as much of my cash as NI. I get the same discount as someone who just bought Ultimate on sale...

For what it's worth IK Multimedia have this completely fucked up rewards system with "Jam Points", and the upgrade to Amplitude 4 is a convoluted mess:
It's got an introductory price and they think that's good enough of a discount for like 90% of the users...
If you bought it on sale you get no discount.
Bought it from another end user no discount.
Used your Jam Points for another purchase? No discount.
Bought it less than two years ago after they dropped their price? No discount.


Thanks for reminding me I also got Kore. At this point they need to pay me to upgrade.

Another annual NI discount offer that makes me :? is “9 specific Maschine Expansion packs for $99, 7 of which you already own!” How about “X amount of Maschine Expansion packs of your choosing for $X!”. It makes no sense. There is zero overhead on digital download inventory and any combo of expansion packs can subsidize the unpopular or old expansion packs.

kleine
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Re: Reaktor 6 is here

Post by kleine » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:36 pm

Angstrom wrote:
gomi wrote:I think what you are looking for is this
https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/oscillot/
I think what you are looking for it the very text I wrote, you quoted, but did not read.

probably worth reading what I wrote
the idea that MAX users could build the high level Reaktor style functional "blocks", inside Max, inside of Ableton.
I don't think increasing layers of abstraction is a good strategy. It's been proven to be the case.
Unfortunately as Oscillot users have found out despite intense effort from the developers - that strategy is a house of cards.
Oscillot is made by the absolute best MAX programmers with the best insight into what M4L can do, The pinnacle of the M4L userbase ... and it's resource hungry and unstable. Even unusable.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=212353&p=1673461

So the outcome of providing a pile of capacitors and resistors to users and saying "Make your own modular" - is proven to be not as good as the completed filter module.
I don't want to be Bob Moog troubleshooting ladder filter components, I want to be Klaus Schulze patching reliable modules.

I think that Ableton Live already has "Blocks" , they are called "Devices". But rather than allow users to connect them together, users were invited to try to recreate them from the bits.


Please note: I'm not criticising Christian, I know he's doing the best he can. But that itself is indicative of the problem
;-)
Some thoughts:
There is heaps of fun in OSCiLLOT already https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR_8YKC1w-w and we're only at v. 1.1.
It's interesting to be have a Reaktor comparison where OSCiLLOT is a 2 person project and a little baby in terms of age etc
-
Btw.: it's totally possible to make solid, professional and stable devices with M4L/Max but since you can create devices relatively quickly, a professional device takes a lot of expertise, time, optimization etc.
In terms of code i find it just absolutely amazing that my first patches from the last millennium still work as on day one and since the late 90s i played countless shows with this stuff.
First with Logic and custom pluggos, then with Live and M4L, even in days where i didn't know what exactly i'm doing.
Funnily you can nowadays even run Reaktor in OSCiLLOT…

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