Dedicate computers to music with Live

[Stromkraft]

I sent this to Ableton Support, but repeating it here. Please vote if you support Ableton helping us users with optionally dedicating all or most of the resources in our machines to making and performing music:

One major issue that people have, including myself, is that other system processes disturb Live operation. I kindly suggest that you add functionality to optionally turn off or limit other processes, including system initiated processes. Starting Live with this option active should render the computer a 100% music machine with no other processes disturbing optimal operation, until you quit the application.

My own main problems are with daemons in OS X, specifically SyncServer related processes that at times can take maybe 80-90% of the 200% I have available on my Core2Duo, one of the machines with Live that I use (My main partner has a quad). Even when I have a faster processor, if I add up resources I will potentially run into this problem at some point. How can I perform under such dire circumstances? Even a little glitch during a performance, because of this, is one too much.

I do blame Apple in this case — I expect Windows 10 could be even worse — for not giving the user more control, but when you purchase Live you typically want to make your computer a music machine. Please assist us that wants to accomplish this objective.

I can add here that most of the time in many songs I don't suffer from this. However, in some songs at certain times — like when system processes are scheduled to run, typically beyond user control — this problem will destroy a session until I freeze some tracks. The next day it works with tracks unfrozen and adding more tracks and oversampled plug-ins is possible without as much as a sigh. There could be other reasons operation is disturbed too, but I've observed this now many times. Naturally other resource intensive application disturb just as much, including network operation. I've taken some steps in controlling other apps, but system processes are much harder to control than I thought and I'm a Mac user since years.

Please vote to make our machines dedicated music machines. I'm open for all solutions including creating our own on both major platforms too, but I think it would be better if Live could help us control this when using it, especially for when performing with Live 9 in the mix.

[Richie Witch]

I can't speak for OS X, but I think this feature would be a complete nightmare in Windows, and would probably cause far more problems than it would fix.

I think the best Windows users can do is to run winconfig regularly and turn off any unnecessary scripts that have been covertly added to your start-up routine. This is something I do once a month because I find some developers are notorious for sneaking their stuff back in during updates.

Yes, Adobe, I'm talking about you!!

[Stromkraft]

I can't speak for OS X, but I think this feature would be a complete nightmare in Windows, and would probably cause far more problems than it would fix.

I think the best Windows users can do is to run winconfig regularly and turn off any unnecessary scripts that have been covertly added to your start-up routine. This is something I do once a month because I find some developers are notorious for sneaking their stuff back in during updates.

I don't know about windows 10, but many people I know that use DAWs in Windows have "hacked" their systems in different ways with third party products or by hand to control other processes.

On My Mac I've made an Automator script that quits all apps, except a select few, and some background processes and then starts up Live for a Session. Let's me cram out a few percent more performance, which may sound small but in my case means I'm just above what I need rather than just under it, so it's more like night and day. Unfortunately background processes schedules that I don't control wreak havoc with this. I must control the schedules better as the time is always wrong.

[Richie Witch]

I don't know about windows 10, but many people I know that use DAWs in Windows have "hacked" their systems in different ways with third party products or by hand to control other processes

Yep, this is exactly what I've done... and my concern is that this is so customized to the specific user and rig, that it's hard to imagine Ableton could create something that would work for even a large percentage of Windows users.

[Machinesworking]

What system specific processes are you experiencing that interrupt your workflow?

Thing's like daily, weekly and monthly scripts are not going to run while you're using Live, and I can't think of any other system maintenance tasks that arbitrarily turn on while you're working that would cause you this sort of issue? I'm not saying you're not having issues, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Modern OS's tend to give all power to the foremost application, and if no other applications are running then you shouldn't experience what you're reporting.

One thing though, if you're in Yosemite, Notifications are something you have to go through and disable, otherwise they will tell you you have mail, hook up to your phone if your neice Facetime's you etc.

[H20nly]

i really like this idea in theory, but i think in practice it cannot work. giving Live that kind of power over you machine is akin to making it the administrator and/or act like a virus. i don't think Ableton have the power to pull off what you are asking for without some kind of alarms (antivirus) or 'access denied' errors being triggered. maybe on Macs, but not in Windows.

i'm with Richie Witch glaring at Adobe... and Apple (iTunes)... in the Windows world for turning themselves back on as start up items with every. fucking. update. no matter how much you want control they just take the power back.

so, i voted yes... but i don't believe it is an achievable goal.

[doghouse]

That's basically impossible. Trust me, I'm an engineer who has been in the computer business for over 30 years.

No OS will ever give that kind of control to a program. In fact, current trends are for more and more security preventing programs (like viruses and other malware) from getting control of other processes.

[Angstrom]

That's basically impossible. Trust me, I'm an engineer who has been in the computer business for over 30 years.

No OS will ever give that kind of control to a program. In fact, current trends are for more and more security preventing programs (like viruses and other malware) from getting control of other processes.

my thoughts exactly. Can you imagine the situation if a random application could start shutting down processes and services they don't own? The very definition of chaos!


For the OP - a solution: Dual boot ?

I know it can be a PITA, but there's a solid achievable route to take.
Set up the other install with no internet and all the fancy stuff turned off.
You are going to bump into a lot of issues with authentication of plugins and updating though.

[Stromkraft]

That's basically impossible. Trust me, I'm an engineer who has been in the computer business for over 30 years.

No OS will ever give that kind of control to a program. In fact, current trends are for more and more security preventing programs (like viruses and other malware) from getting control of other processes.

my thoughts exactly. Can you imagine the situation if a random application could start shutting down processes and services they don't own? The very definition of chaos!

I find this attitude quite problematic. It's our machines. If Microsoft or Apple can't build services that respect our processes are to be prioritized then obviously users will have to control these in at least some cases.

As is common in this kind of discussions, the extreme cases and over interpretations are put forward as well as notions of "It's impossible". Please understand that I still respect your opinions, your level of knowledge, where you're coming from and all that. OK? But I still disagree with this.

My suggestion is not about hacking the OSes per se (even if I've done that as well as have friends of mine), but rather using what's already available to re-prioritize processes and handle schedules. The OSes are already using managers that administrators can utilize. My suggestion to Ableton would be to use such native tools and open source tools and simply automate running these from Live, rather than develop their own tools, though with open source code projects they could add to the code as needed.

Let me give you an example why this is important:

You make a performance at 2.00 am. You forgot or never really knew that you've have updates once a month running and you forgot to turn off, or inadvertently turned on, the Wifi that manages to find an open network and a download starts mid-concert. You are so occupied playing so you miss the signs, the CPU is disturbed and glitches are heard. You find this scenario acceptable? Do you think the audience or the people that hired you does?

This or similar scenarios being even possible is no good.

So you should know what you're doing, you say? Of course, but thing is musicians are how they are and it shouldn't have to be this way anyway. It doesn't have to be this way.

As I said I already do something similar which includes automatically turning off all internet and I only have issues with a handful of processes in OS X that I decided that I will rein in. I'll succeed.

But I'm also thinking of all people I know and don't know, on OS X or Windows machines, that are not like me and only wants to do their music thing and are asking a whole lot from the machines they've paid for. Usually everything goes along smoothly until…

We deserve better.

[Stromkraft]

What system specific processes are you experiencing that interrupt your workflow?

I haven't tamed SyncServer initiated processes yet as issues are far between and the new system parts for these processes are unfamiliar to me. I just need to get p***ed off again and find an evening or two to study the situation.

I'm actually not sure exactly how my friends have set up their control over their PCs. I have a laptop, but it's not in use at the moment.

[Stromkraft]

i really like this idea in theory, but i think in practice it cannot work. giving Live that kind of power over you machine is akin to making it the administrator and/or act like a virus.

Thanks for your support, but this is not about virus level hacking. It's more about letting the user be the administrator and controller of the machine in an as safe fashion as possible.

[H20nly]

i really like this idea in theory, but i think in practice it cannot work. giving Live that kind of power over you machine is akin to making it the administrator and/or act like a virus.

Thanks for your support, but this is not about virus level hacking. It's more about letting the user be the administrator and controller of the machine in an as safe fashion as possible.

i get it. and i totally understand the scenario you described above with wifi and updates as a real thing that can happen, but it's up to the user to flip the wifi switch to off on the laptop. that's what it's there for. settings to turn off updates are there for this reason too.

the problem (from the Windows/Mac perspective) of an application being able to alter system files and resources [beyond the norm] is that by allowing Live to do it you are essentially opening the gate for 'rouge program X' to do it as well. there is a layer between the OS and applications/users to protect the computer (i.e. the user's investment). i get it that this affects power users too, i'm just pointing out the logic behind it... which you probably know and understand, just do not like.

i think that you're looking to the wrong source for this change that you would like to see implemented. i think a single app mode that is designed to only run the required services, processes, and executables that the featured/selected app needs should be an OS feature, not a DAW feature. i can think of several uses in the medical environment that i work in where this would be a good thing as well.

in short; i think you should be bending Microsoft's and Apple's ears with this idea, but i realize that Ableton is a much more accessible audience.

thinking "out loud" possible Windows workaround; start the computer in Safe Mode.

[Stromkraft]

the problem (from the Windows/Mac perspective) of an application being able to alter system files and resources [beyond the norm] is that by allowing Live to do it you are essentially opening the gate for 'rouge program X' to do it as well. there is a layer between the OS and applications/users to protect the computer (i.e. the user's investment). i get it that this affects power users too, i'm just pointing out the logic behind it... which you probably know and understand, just do not like.

i think that you're looking to the wrong source for this change that you would like to see implemented. i think a single app mode that is designed to only run the required services, processes, and executables that the featured/selected app needs should be an OS feature, not a DAW feature. i can think of several uses in the medical environment that i work in where this would be a good thing as well.

in short; i think you should be bending Microsoft's and Apple's ears with this idea, but i realize that Ableton is a much more accessible audience.

:idea: thinking "out loud" possible Windows workaround; start the computer in Safe Mode.

I welcome your perspective. However, I don't agree this feature must be a security risk, at least not in OS X. Changing schedules and controlling background daemons is what Mac Administrators do. While you can wreck the system unless you know what you're doing, you won't provided you do your research. Any malware could piggyback already with the assistance of the user when running a tainted installer and giving the administrator password, in some cases without.
Controlling processes is not something that Apple have completely hidden or made completely inaccessible for the (administrator) user.

This might pose a bigger problem in Windows 10, but I don't think so. If Ableton decides to implement this, they would obviously use good judgement and work with already available OS infrastructure in the respective systems. I seriously doubt they would try to hack the systems and this wouldn't typically be needed. Specific Automated Administration is a better word for what I'm requesting.

This is what my current session script does:

• Quits all normal apps, except those on a white list (I've chosen to review any saves)
• Quits or inactivates menu bar applications, like Dropbox and Hazel
• Quits any user background processes I might have running, like servers and databases
• Turns off the network
• Changes my desktop picture for inspiration and reference

When I finish a session the applications that were running are all restored and as this is OS X so are the documents that were open.

To this I'm going to add:

• Low priority schedule for certain processes like SyncServer and system maintenance processes, including my backup program QRecall.
• Possible process priority tuning

If Ableton do this, they could also do something like a function that could change any instrument, including third party, in the project to performance mode and maybe an ability to drop some instruments or devices out completely rather than glitch, much like when synths do this with voices.

[H20nly]

the problem is that if Ableton (even could) give you that power that you would probably benefit from it and be ok... but not everyone is you. effectively making Ableton the administrator of your computer comes at the cost of blame shift too. there are many users out there, even the musicians, that don't know how to draw a line in the sand and troubleshoot. so i fear the forum would be riddled with 'Ableton hosed my computer' posts just like they take the blame (and are burdened with proving otherwise) when Joe Blow's Cool Free VST stops playing nicely.

it also puts Ableton in the position of potentially having to put out an update every time a new OS version (or maybe even a security patch) is released. it's not like Apple or Microsoft are going to check in with them first. so this puts the burden squarely on their shoulders and/or their users who ultimately end up being the testers.

as mentioned, i would love to see something implemented... i just don't see it happening for reasons stated. even if Apple allowed it would Microsoft? and vice versa... which means that Live users could become even more divided on the OS front. seems like an ends don't justify the means things from a business perspective.

i have two computers, one iMac (running Mavericks) and one Windows 7 (Lenovo) laptop. i'd be glad to help you test scripting if you think you get something nailed down. send a PM.

hope you find your happy place.

cheers

[Stromkraft]

it also puts Ableton in the position of potentially having to put out an update every time a new OS version (or maybe even a security patch) is released. it's not like Apple or Microsoft are going to check in with them first. so this puts the burden squarely on their shoulders and/or their users who ultimately end up being the testers.

This is probably the strongest argument against the idea so far. However, as the implementation would be optional, it might not be more troublesome than the functionality in an unsupported version of the OS just reverts to normal operation.

i'd be glad to help you test scripting if you think you get something nailed down. send a PM.

I'll see if I can share the OS X script when I have something more, but it's possible I'll feel content personally with many different scripts and solutions doing different things and that could be difficult to share. My current priority is evaluating EQs and finishing stuff, so will be a while.

For Windows I'll ask around. There are businesses doing their own legal special installations of Windows that I can ask advice from, but I suspect licensing is the biggest hurdle to get access to their tools. Last time I got reason to ask for a modification to such a product that a company I worked for used, just adding another web browser would have cost $600 in licensing. I'm sure there are other tools as well, but I don't know much about them. I use my Windows 7 box very seldom since 6 months, so haven't felt the need.

Thanks for good ideas and reflections everyone!