Since Live 9.5, the Auto Filter Effect and many instruments such as simpler, sampler, etc. offer the user a wide range of different filter circuit designs. For me that's the best thing about Live 9.5. To have so many different filter "flavours" just a click away, without the need of having to open some third party filter plugin for that analog sound, is just amazing. Just shows me again, that Ableton Live is probably one of the most carefully designed Application in any field.
For me the next step would be to give the user the same choice of circuit designs with EQ Eight. I think the clean sound which EQ Eight offers at the moment is great for a lot of stuff. But I would love dial in some EQ settings and then change the basic sound of the EQ with just one click and find the circuit design which sounds best with my EQ settings and the sound I'm working with. For me that feature would bring EQ Eight to the next level and head to head with some of the best EQ plugins (such as EQuilibrium, Pro Q, etc.) out there.
TLDR: Give the user the ability to choose the filter circuit design in EQ eight, just like how it works in Auto Filter since Live 9.5.
Cheers and thanks Ableton for such an amazing piece of software!
Choose differnt filter circuit types in EQ Eight
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kirky_roger
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:17 am
Re: Choose differnt filter circuit types in EQ Eight
It's a nice idea, the only issue would be that Andy Cytomic is the man who Ableton call to fix filters. He's already improved the EQ8 to the current transparent state so he's certainly familiar with working in that specific area.
But the issue would be: Ableton licensed versions of Cytomic's Drop filters (which come from synths) EG - an MS20 version 2, a Rogue filter, etc. These are from his work emulating specifically Synth filters for his own product. So it's a port of existing work.
What you are talking about would be some variants on the Neve filters, some sort of Harrison32 thing, etc.
I'm saying - it would be great, but I suspect it requires Mr Cytomic to do a lot of additional work which may not be currently on his bench. But who knows, perhaps he's already planning on doing a Classic Desks release.
But the issue would be: Ableton licensed versions of Cytomic's Drop filters (which come from synths) EG - an MS20 version 2, a Rogue filter, etc. These are from his work emulating specifically Synth filters for his own product. So it's a port of existing work.
What you are talking about would be some variants on the Neve filters, some sort of Harrison32 thing, etc.
I'm saying - it would be great, but I suspect it requires Mr Cytomic to do a lot of additional work which may not be currently on his bench. But who knows, perhaps he's already planning on doing a Classic Desks release.
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andy_cytomic
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:06 am
Re: Choose differnt filter circuit types in EQ Eight
This is a great idea and one I hope will be popular as I am already working flat out to bring it to reality in plugin form.
Angstrom has summed it up pretty well, synth filters are quite different to EQ filters so require a bunch of different modelling. It can be fun to use synth filters like an EQ, but mostly you want more subtle colouring with an EQ.
When most plugin developers say they have "modelled" a classic console EQ section they normally leave out all the non-linearities and don't even preserve the structure of the original filter in their "model". Usually it is just the linear amplitude response of the EQ and possibly also matching the phase if you engage a special mode, which is still really useful as lots of console EQs are quite clean. Some great linear EQs include Live's own EQ8, FabFilter Pro-Q2, or DMG Audio's Equality. These all offer decramped amplitude and phase matching to classic analog shapes, but none of them have drive, and EQ8 is the only one to preserve the topology of an analog filter (an SVF).
The new plugin I'm working on will have multiple non-linear circuits to choose from for each section independently, as well as a clean mode that behaves like a regular linear EQ so you will be able to do both tone EQ as well as regular clean EQ tasks all from a single plugin.
Angstrom has summed it up pretty well, synth filters are quite different to EQ filters so require a bunch of different modelling. It can be fun to use synth filters like an EQ, but mostly you want more subtle colouring with an EQ.
When most plugin developers say they have "modelled" a classic console EQ section they normally leave out all the non-linearities and don't even preserve the structure of the original filter in their "model". Usually it is just the linear amplitude response of the EQ and possibly also matching the phase if you engage a special mode, which is still really useful as lots of console EQs are quite clean. Some great linear EQs include Live's own EQ8, FabFilter Pro-Q2, or DMG Audio's Equality. These all offer decramped amplitude and phase matching to classic analog shapes, but none of them have drive, and EQ8 is the only one to preserve the topology of an analog filter (an SVF).
The new plugin I'm working on will have multiple non-linear circuits to choose from for each section independently, as well as a clean mode that behaves like a regular linear EQ so you will be able to do both tone EQ as well as regular clean EQ tasks all from a single plugin.
The Glue, The Drop, The Scream - https://www.cytomic.com
Re: Choose differnt filter circuit types in EQ Eight
Heh, my guess is it will be a very popular product.
You have a respected name and if you say it's modelled then it really is. That's what people are after. I'm very dubious about most developers claims to have "modelled" something and that can mean anything from really doing it to "I put a linear interpolation on the controls and a 2x oversampled waveshaper on the output"
When it comes to nice signal paths The Harrison Mixbus is probably a stretch too far for most people in the DAW realm - so a plugin which can accurately do what it says on the tin regarding channel filters is something people look for. Lets face it, this industry loves "fairy dust" as it used to be called in studios
One thing on "Linear / Non Linear" you probably need to bear in mind that we are all a bit daft here and so you'll need to make a differentiation between linear drive and linear phase when mentioning these topics ... otherwise you will be seeing topics like "Andrew assures us that EQ8 is the best Linear Phase EQ" appearing around the internet in future!
You have a respected name and if you say it's modelled then it really is. That's what people are after. I'm very dubious about most developers claims to have "modelled" something and that can mean anything from really doing it to "I put a linear interpolation on the controls and a 2x oversampled waveshaper on the output"
When it comes to nice signal paths The Harrison Mixbus is probably a stretch too far for most people in the DAW realm - so a plugin which can accurately do what it says on the tin regarding channel filters is something people look for. Lets face it, this industry loves "fairy dust" as it used to be called in studios
One thing on "Linear / Non Linear" you probably need to bear in mind that we are all a bit daft here and so you'll need to make a differentiation between linear drive and linear phase when mentioning these topics ... otherwise you will be seeing topics like "Andrew assures us that EQ8 is the best Linear Phase EQ" appearing around the internet in future!
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kirky_roger
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:17 am
Re: Choose differnt filter circuit types in EQ Eight
Hej andy. First let me say I'm hugely impressed by the work you've done with the Glue Compressor and EQ Eight in the past and I'm sure I will love the new filter types just as much. The moment I realized, that I had the Glue's algorithms (which I already used in my previous workflow) in a native Ableton Effect, I knew how much potential could lie in such a partnership. And as a matter of fact I find myself using the Glue Compressor 90% of the time when a bus compressor is needed.andy_cytomic wrote: The new plugin I'm working on will have multiple non-linear circuits to choose from for each section independently, as well as a clean mode that behaves like a regular linear EQ so you will be able to do both tone EQ as well as regular clean EQ tasks all from a single plugin.
The thing about plugins is, that they don't offer the best workflow in a DAW such as Ableton. A huge plus for Ableton is, that you don't have to open some plugins window to fiddle with your sound, but that you can use Ableton's own Effects (and Instruments) and have the GUI of your whole effects chain right there in front of you. Unfortunately a lot of company's forget how important workflow improvements really are and cluster their plugins GUI with unnecessary shit just to look fancy (see Waves). I'm convinced that a big part of Fabfilter's success with Pro Q2 is a result of their focus on the plugin's GUI and workflow. That just shows how important proper GUI and handling design is and accessibility of Ableton's Effects pushes that advantage beyond the reach of normal VST plugins.
So for me at least, things like the Glue Compressor and the new filter effect in a native Ableton Effects are 3x worth the money in comparison to the same thing in a plugin. Just because it suits the creative workflow I (and many other users) have with Ableton, so much more. I'm sure that's something the Ableton team is well aware off and I hope that they continue to push the native Ableton effects and instruments in quality and features just like they did with the 9.5 release.
I guess what I want to say is, that I'm really looking forward the plugin you're working on. And if there's any chance that you could reuse the code for a native Ableton Effect, let me know and I'm happy to pay double the price of your normal plugin
You can also hack something together just for me. Nobody has to know.Third party plugins will always be a part of every serious music producer's workflow, just because the company which produces the DAW can't also come up with hundreds of different synthesizers, effects, etc. But things like compressors and EQs are so fundamental, that I'm looking forward to DAW's offering more than one "tone"/"flavour"/"style" of each of these Effects, just like Ableton did with their Compressor and the Glue Compressor and hopefully will do so in the future with EQ8's clean circuit design and some other non-linear circuit designs designed by you.
Keep up the amazing work and thank you for listening!
Re: Choose differnt filter circuit types in EQ Eight
kirky_roger wrote:Since Live 9.5, the Auto Filter Effect and many instruments such as simpler, sampler, etc. offer the user a wide range of different filter circuit designs. For me that's the best thing about Live 9.5. To have so many different filter "flavours" just a click away, without the need of having to open some third party filter plugin for that analog sound, is just amazing. Just shows me again, that Ableton Live is probably one of the most carefully designed Application in any field.
For me the next step would be to give the user the same choice of circuit designs with EQ Eight. I think the clean sound which EQ Eight offers at the moment is great for a lot of stuff. But I would love dial in some EQ settings and then change the basic sound of the EQ with just one click and find the circuit design which sounds best with my EQ settings and the sound I'm working with. For me that feature would bring EQ Eight to the next level and head to head with some of the best EQ plugins (such as EQuilibrium, Pro Q, etc.) out there.
TLDR: Give the user the ability to choose the filter circuit design in EQ eight, just like how it works in Auto Filter since Live 9.5.
Cheers and thanks Ableton for such an amazing piece of software!
I would wish they more did this with the compressor than the EQ. Logic's compressor for example is really great and emulates VCA, FETS, Optos and others and even has a drive control.