[Old, see new thread] Ubermap: Push VST param remapping

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Jesse
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by Jesse » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:12 am

Hey I just wanted to chime in here: I looked at the community mappings for the new parameter ordering of Push 2. I owe a huge debt to this community. Of course it is quite different now, because we also have dynamic parameter ordering.

And to follow up: this new parameter ordering (along with access to Simplers's new features) will come to Push 1 very soon in an upcoming beta. Thanks for your patience...

Edit: Also: much respect to Ubermap and Tom_d! Tom I would wait until the upcoming beta to play with this code as we will rearrange some of the code to bring the new parameter ordering to Push 1.

tom_d
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by tom_d » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:40 am

Jesse wrote:Hey I just wanted to chime in here: I looked at the community mappings for the new parameter ordering of Push 2. I owe a huge debt to this community. Of course it is quite different now, because we also have dynamic parameter ordering.

And to follow up: this new parameter ordering (along with access to Simplers's new features) will come to Push 1 very soon in an upcoming beta. Thanks for your patience...

Edit: Also: much respect to Ubermap and Tom_d! Tom I would wait until the upcoming beta to play with this code as we will rearrange some of the code to bring the new parameter ordering to Push 1.
Thanks for the update Jesse, much appreciated and great to know the goodness is coming to Push 1 :) of course, the photos of that new display have got me tempted to just list the v1 on eBay and go for the v2, haha.

It looks fantastic - congratulations to you and the team, you should be really proud! EDIT: I like what you've done to the codebase too - heh ;)
Last edited by tom_d on Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ubermap: simple, free bank and parameter remapping for AudioUnit and VST devices for Push and Push 2: http://ubermap.live

tom_d
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by tom_d » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:44 am

BTW Jesse - am I right in my suspicion that the .apcc files will allow us to do Ubermap-style grouping of parameters into custom banks (I guess with UI support at some point)? And if so, is this implemented yet (for either Push 1 or 2)? Of course, now we're going to want the dynamic parameter displaying options for VSTs too ;) hehe
Ubermap: simple, free bank and parameter remapping for AudioUnit and VST devices for Push and Push 2: http://ubermap.live

Jesse
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by Jesse » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:56 am

Hi Tom,
Man, you give a little bit and people just want more! :lol:

I can't comment on if or when this kind of support for M4L or VST devices would happen, but we understand that by improving native Live device parameter ordering and graphics, we have set a bar that creates a strong desire for this to work well with other types of devices. So, the wish is heard but can't comment further.

J

tom_d
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by tom_d » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:15 pm

Jesse wrote:Hi Tom,
Man, you give a little bit and people just want more! :lol:

I can't comment on if or when this kind of support for M4L or VST devices would happen, but we understand that by improving native Live device parameter ordering and graphics, we have set a bar that creates a strong desire for this to work well with other types of devices. So, the wish is heard but can't comment further.

J
You should move into politics ;)

Cheers,
Tom
Ubermap: simple, free bank and parameter remapping for AudioUnit and VST devices for Push and Push 2: http://ubermap.live

tom_d
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by tom_d » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:45 am

Just as an update on this if anyone cares ;) It seems that the .appc config files Ableton generates when you save plugin defaults have the right structure to potentially store parameters grouped into banks with custom names (sample below), in the same way Ubermap does, but currently any attempt to group or rename parameters is not recognised by Live. I imagine they have designed the file format so that it can support this in future, but in the rush to get a new product out of the door, the supporting code has not yet been enabled or written.

Unfortunately there's obviously no timeline on if/when this might happen, but Jesse has indicated that Push 1 is going to get the same dynamic parameter ordering support as Push 2, which will mean a refactoring of quite a lot of the code, so there is no point in looking at any potential hacks until this change is in beta. If it doesn't look like the new beta adds support for grouping/renaming from the plugin config files, I might have a look if anything is possible for an "Ubermap 2" to support this as I know I'd miss the functionality too much ;)

There's a pretty high chance I'm not going to be able to resist buying a Push 2, especially now I've seen that the display code uses Javascript and QML which could potentially mean some really cool stuff is possible - it all depends on how locked down it is... but I'll probably hang on to the Push 1 for a while so any hacks can be supported across both devices.

Tech note: The .appc files are JSON, which is a very standard format, and is the format I originally wanted to use for Ubermap but was prevented from doing so because of the limitations of the Python interpreter built into Live! File format looks like:

Code: Select all

{
    "id" : "application/vnd.ableton.plugin-configuration",
    "version" : "1.0",
    "device-id" : "device:au:audiofx:1180787270:1179869556:1635085670?n=FF%20Saturn",
    "groups" : [
        {
            "name" : "Default",
            "parameters" : [
                {
                    "name" : "Input Gain",
                    "id" : 0,
                    "x-slot" : 0,
                    "y-slot" : 0
                },
                {
                    "name" : "Input Pan",
                    "id" : 1,
                    "x-slot" : 0,
                    "y-slot" : 1
                },
                {
                    "name" : "Output Gain",
                    "id" : 2,
                    "x-slot" : 0,
                    "y-slot" : 2
                },
                {
                    "name" : "Output Pan",
                    "id" : 3,
                    "x-slot" : 0,
                    "y-slot" : 3
                }
            ]
        }
    ]
}
Ubermap: simple, free bank and parameter remapping for AudioUnit and VST devices for Push and Push 2: http://ubermap.live

Soulimano
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:35 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by Soulimano » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:00 am

Hi All, and Tom especially.

I m a hard user of your ubermap tool, wich should deserve to be much more known and used.

I personally can't handle with push a VST plugin withtout clear parameter's names. I can spent many hours to get the perfect setup on my workflow before creating music, to preserve a clear mind for inspiration, avoiding any mind break or doubts (for example i don't want to ask myself if the parameter "fltcut2" is really the cutoff on push for a vst, and just put my hands on the right parameter exactly when i just have it in mind, when i feel to do change it).

That's why ubermap is great for me, thanks for you shared work.

So i would like to see something like that un Push2, and i dont understand why Ableton don't bring this possibility wich is all about ergonomy and workflow.
Some parameters are often clearly unreadable on many vst plugins, and need from the user to check and search on computer screen if not directly on plugin interface.

I checked theses .appc files add changed some parameter's names as a try, but couldn't see theses changes applied on push screen. Tom did you succeed on anything about it ?

Maybe theses files are still part of a "work in progress" update from ableton ?

T3chn0
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:53 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by T3chn0 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:00 pm

Hi everyone!

I just wanted to thank you SO much for the work you did in Ubermap, it was an absolute saviour of the push. I've been silly and bought a Push 2 and I miss the bank naming SO much.

I appreciate how busy you are, and what a task this is. Do you have any kind of plans for an upgrade or is it just too much time and work to be viable?

Ubermap 2 would be something I'd be happy to pay for. :)

tom_d
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by tom_d » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:25 pm

T3chn0 wrote:Hi everyone!

I just wanted to thank you SO much for the work you did in Ubermap, it was an absolute saviour of the push. I've been silly and bought a Push 2 and I miss the bank naming SO much.

I appreciate how busy you are, and what a task this is. Do you have any kind of plans for an upgrade or is it just too much time and work to be viable?

Ubermap 2 would be something I'd be happy to pay for. :)
Hey,

My absolute pleasure, I'm really glad that other people found it useful! I do plan to take a look at how feasible it would be to get Ubermap working with Live 9.5 - I've not had a proper chance to look at how much things have changed under the hood, so it's really hard to give any kind of estimate, but I will update here when I have had a chance :)

It does look like Ableton have some of the parts in place to implement this functionality natively in Live, but as of the last beta, the .appc files I described above still take no effect, so I have no idea if/when this might happen!

Cheers and I will keep you updated!
Tom
Ubermap: simple, free bank and parameter remapping for AudioUnit and VST devices for Push and Push 2: http://ubermap.live

tom_d
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by tom_d » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:29 pm

Soulimano wrote:Hi All, and Tom especially.

I m a hard user of your ubermap tool, wich should deserve to be much more known and used.

I personally can't handle with push a VST plugin withtout clear parameter's names. I can spent many hours to get the perfect setup on my workflow before creating music, to preserve a clear mind for inspiration, avoiding any mind break or doubts (for example i don't want to ask myself if the parameter "fltcut2" is really the cutoff on push for a vst, and just put my hands on the right parameter exactly when i just have it in mind, when i feel to do change it).

That's why ubermap is great for me, thanks for you shared work.

So i would like to see something like that un Push2, and i dont understand why Ableton don't bring this possibility wich is all about ergonomy and workflow.
Some parameters are often clearly unreadable on many vst plugins, and need from the user to check and search on computer screen if not directly on plugin interface.

I checked theses .appc files add changed some parameter's names as a try, but couldn't see theses changes applied on push screen. Tom did you succeed on anything about it ?

Maybe theses files are still part of a "work in progress" update from ableton ?
Hey,

I know exactly what you mean about the workflow thing - I thought Push would be the ideal way to make software feel more like hardware, but without sensible parameter and bank layouts, it's almost harder than just using the mouse!

I am quite surprised that Push 2 was released without any changes here, I guess the tricky bit for Ableton is working out how to integrate such functionality into Live in a clear and usable way - it's not very "Ableton" to say that users have to manually edit config files ;)

Anyway, yeah, it seems the appc files only control the order and visibility of parameters for now, nothing to do with banks or renaming, but the file structure would support that kind of use, so I do hope this functionality will come soon - as I said to the poster above, I intend to take a look and see if it's feasible to get Ubermap running against the new 9.5 betas so I will update on here!

Cheers,
Tom
Ubermap: simple, free bank and parameter remapping for AudioUnit and VST devices for Push and Push 2: http://ubermap.live

tom_d
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by tom_d » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:28 pm

Alright so kind of good news, I just had a play around and have managed to take control of the Push screen with 9.5 ;)

Image

The other good news is that I've found a way to do this that should be much more robust to changes in the Push code in the future (unless there is another major change like there was from 9.2 to 9.5)

The bad news is that the code is quite a lot different so I'll have to work out the best way to get Ubermap working with it, but hopefully I'll find a bit of time to look at that tomorrow. The other bad news is I have no Push 2 to test with, but if anyone wants to buy me one I'll happily supply my address ;) heh... but at least for parameter and bank names, I think they share the same code, so it should work across both.

I'll keep you all updated anyway!

Cheers
Tom
Ubermap: simple, free bank and parameter remapping for AudioUnit and VST devices for Push and Push 2: http://ubermap.live

tom_d
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Ubermap (Alpha, Mac-only): Simple Push parameter remapping

Post by tom_d » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:23 pm

Alright, good news - I've managed to get Ubermap working with Live 9.5 (beta 4)! It required quite a few changes as Ableton's Push-related code has been totally rewritten, but I'm hopeful that the changes I've made to the way Ubermap interacts with Live's code will make it more stable as the Push code changes and potentially enable some cool new features down the line (for the technically minded, I now take advantage of Python's dynamic nature to "monkey patch", i.e. replace or augment, certain Ableton methods without having to use the entire decompiled source for the file in question, which was a big problem before as the decompilation is far from perfect and manually fixing up the files in question took a lot of time).

I've only tested this really briefly, so there are most likely a few bugs. I've added "experimental" support for Push 2, but as I have no Push 2, I have no idea if this will work or not - hopefully it uses the same code to get the device and bank names so it should do, but who knows!

Anyway, if you are willing to be a guinea pig and promise not to sue me if your lovely Push melts down ;) then here is the ZIP: https://github.com/tomduncalf/ubermap/archive/0.3b3.zip, or you can browse the code/READMEs at https://github.com/tomduncalf/ubermap/tree/9.5. Install instructions are the same as before (see https://github.com/tomduncalf/ubermap/b ... /README.md), obviously ensure you have a full, recent backup before trying it out and don't install on your primary production machine if it's important to you. Note that you need 9.5 Beta 4 (there is a test version for beta 5 at https://github.com/tomduncalf/ubermap/a ... 5debug.zip), and it will only install over the beta.

Existing Ubermap configurations *should* work, the only change is that the "best of" bank (i.e. the one you see before going "in" to a device with Push) no longer exists - instead, Push just displays the first bank you define in the Ubermap config in its place - therefore, you should move your existing "Best Of" configs to the first bank (you can call it "Best of" if you like so it's clear).

Would be really interested to know how people get on, especially Push 2 owners - if there are any problems, just post in here or send me a private message on the forum, and I'll do what I can to help.

Cheers,
Tom
Last edited by tom_d on Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Ubermap: simple, free bank and parameter remapping for AudioUnit and VST devices for Push and Push 2: http://ubermap.live

[chris b]
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:45 pm

Re: Ubermap (w/experimental 9.5/Push2): Push parameter remapping

Post by [chris b] » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:51 pm

Hi I'm delighted this is getting updated and I'm willing to test it on windows but neither of the files below are in the zip file.
Copy Devices.py from the unzipped Devices folder to the _Generic folder in your Live Remote MIDI Scripts folder

Copy DeviceParameterComponent.py from the unzipped Devices folder to the Push folder in your Live Remote MIDI Scripts folder

Soulimano
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:35 pm

Re: Ubermap (w/experimental 9.5/Push2): Push parameter remapping

Post by Soulimano » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:31 pm

Hi Tom,


Thanks for your answer and your efforts with ubermap. As said T3chn0, i woul be ready as well to pay for this kind of software.

I will be soon able to tell you whats going on with your last script as my own push2 is on it's way. Hope ubermap will still work, i m ready as well to help in any way you need if i can.

nb : Devices.py and DeviceParameterComponent.py are missing in the zip file.

tom_d
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Ubermap (w/experimental 9.5/Push2): Push parameter remapping

Post by tom_d » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:36 pm

Ah sorry guys, those instructions haven't been updated as I am on a Mac and was using the install script so totally forgot! I'll get it updated and post again when they are corrected :)
Ubermap: simple, free bank and parameter remapping for AudioUnit and VST devices for Push and Push 2: http://ubermap.live

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