Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

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fishmonkey
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by fishmonkey » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:07 pm

yes, that is true about why the mapping could vary.

to be clear though, the biggest issue isn't that the pressure -> velocity mapping isn't the same between striking versus pressing a pad that your finger is resting on. if that was consistently different i could indeed just modify the amount of pressure i apply to compensate. the biggest problem is that the velocity response when your finger is resting on a pad is not consistent. this is easy to see with a MIDI monitoring app, and easy to hear with a responsive instrument (e.g. Pianoteq).

if i rest my finger on a pad and apply pressure there are some 'zones' where sometimes only very low velocity notes are produced (essentially silent) and sometimes a much higher velocity is produced.

in terms of velocity response, Push 1 could be played like a piano and Push 2 at the moment requires a change in technique. overall i far prefer the feel of the Push 2 pads, but this issue is distracting for some types of playing.
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

Kris.P
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:16 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Kris.P » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:13 am

JPacker555 wrote:I think fishmonkey is highlighting the most important things for me here, which are - the response is inconsistent and therefore it is not reliable as an instrument; it seems to be dependent on technique, and those playing in a staccato/percussive manner won't experience it; what stands out the most is, Push 1 does not have this issue! As somebody who enjoys livelooping, having to frequently rerecord passages can really mess up the flow of your song, so this is why its most disappointing.
I understand that you and some others feel disappointed that you have an issue which isn't yet resolved, but please don't factor your assumptions about other people's playing styles into your argument.
You're making pretty broad assumptions about other people's playing styles here. Fwiw I play the whole range .. I can and often do play *pianissimo* with a feather stroke depending on what's required for the music.

BTW I did hear the difference in responsiveness in your video's and I wouldn't be happy either if mine was doing that. But apart from my initial issues with the guitar/bass soundpack, I just don't experience what you showed in the videos nor can I reproduce it.

I really hope there's a solution to your Push 2 problem soon ...

starving student
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by starving student » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:15 am

ObtuseMoose wrote:
fishmonkey wrote:basically the amount of pressure applied should map to the same velocity if your finger is already resting on the pad, compared to if you strike the pad from a distance.
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on exactly how they're doing that mapping.

A moving finger striking a pad has kinetic energy and inertia and will exert a greater force for a brief time than a finger just resting on the pad and increasing the pressure with muscles.

Think of the different reactions you'd have if I dropped a 10 pound weight on your foot from a height of 3 feet versus gently laying the same weight on your foot. The ultimate pressure is the same, but there's an initial impulse of much greater pressure in the dropped case because of the kinetic energy and inertia of the moving weight and your non-moving foot.

The way the pressure changes over time will also be different in each case. In the case of a finger strike, the pressure will increase much more quickly than in the case of a stationary finger increasing pressure. In other words, the strike case has a much shorter attack time.

Finally, the pads on the Push are made of some sort of elastic (springy) material, so there is likely to be some bouncing or oscillation of the sensed pressure until it settles down to a more or less stable value. This oscillation will likely be greater in the case of the rapid rise of pressure due to the finger strike than the slower rise of pressure of the stationary finger.

My guess is that it's this elasticity of the pads that is causing the problem. The timing of when they sample the pressure may be very critical, and variations in finger size and playing style could be difficult to account for, resulting in some people having no trouble at all while others find the device virtually unusable.

As to why Push 1 didn't seem to have this problem, I can only speculate that perhaps the pad material had slightly different properties, or maybe the firmware had more time to sense and process the pad signals.

All just guesses on my part, but I can see how this could be a difficult problem to solve.

--
Moose
I wish they would just get whomever developed push 1 to fix the issue and move on... but at least ableton acknowledges the problem exist and is addressing it.... just a little more patience I guess :)

Langley Bremer
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Langley Bremer » Mon May 02, 2016 1:53 pm

Hey,
just got my Push 2. Expierienced the unresponsiveness and now found that thread here. Now i´m really concerned if I should keep the Push 2, because I really need it to play melodies, but o get it to respond i have to hammer with more force I would do to play. I own a Maschine Mikro and the difference is huge. Soft tipping isn´t getting the Push 2 to respond at all, but i don´t wan´t to hammer the hell out of the notes all the time. There still seems to be no reaction from the developers. So it really becomes less likely to be fixed in Firmware right?

howdy

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Stromkraft » Tue May 03, 2016 9:34 am

Langley Bremer wrote:There still seems to be no reaction from the developers. So it really becomes less likely to be fixed in Firmware right?
If it can be fixed in firmware I'm sure it ill get fixed. Generally it's good idea to calmly keep insisting Ableton fix this and other issues.
Make some music!

Langley Bremer
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Langley Bremer » Tue May 03, 2016 11:15 am

The thing is, if there is no one answering who is involved, how can we know. At the Moment, while still a great piece of gear it´s not usable for me as midi keyboard replacement because of the strange response. For 700 bucks it would be quite nice, if at least someone would tell if this could and will be fixed soon. Don´t understand the good reviews about the pads either. Why do the pads need so much inital force to react? They even loose hold and retrigger sometimes if i reduce a little bit of pressure.

[jur]
Site Admin
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by [jur] » Tue May 03, 2016 1:51 pm

Hi Langley,
The devs are working on improving this. It takes times mainly because there's so many parameters to take into account to find a good compromise for every playing style.
Ableton Forum Moderator

JPacker555
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:35 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by JPacker555 » Tue May 10, 2016 2:04 am

Langley Bremer wrote:The thing is, if there is no one answering who is involved, how can we know. At the Moment, while still a great piece of gear it´s not usable for me as midi keyboard replacement because of the strange response. For 700 bucks it would be quite nice, if at least someone would tell if this could and will be fixed soon. Don´t understand the good reviews about the pads either. Why do the pads need so much inital force to react? They even loose hold and retrigger sometimes if i reduce a little bit of pressure.
Hi Langley,

It sounds like you are having similar issues to what some of us in this thread have experienced. Personally I wish I had returned mine when I could, and stuck with the Push 1. The Push 2 does a lot of things great, but as a replacement for a midi keyboard it does not. RIght now if I had to record or play live, I would choose my $200 Roland A-49 instead, 100% of the time. There have been multiple firmware patches since the issue was acknowledged, without improvement. Jur is the first person from Ableton to post on this thread since he last did on January 20th, and while I appreciate him taking the time to update us, not much has changed. So if I were you, I would not make your decision under the assumption that it will be worked out anytime soon.

EyeSoul
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:17 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by EyeSoul » Fri May 20, 2016 2:20 am

Love my Push 2 but there is definitely a real issue with pad responsiveness,just not the same accuracy as my midi keyboard.

hyperscientist
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:37 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by hyperscientist » Tue May 24, 2016 9:26 am

How do you feel about this issue - will it get resolved ever? I mean, maybe it's just the way it is and hardware constraints won't let it get much better?

I just canceled my order (it was on stand-by for couple weeks as the store was waiting for Volca FM shipment) after reading this thread.

Langley Bremer
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Langley Bremer » Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:42 pm

good decesion...

kept mine. really, worst pads ever. still can´t believe that they fucked it up so badly in my opinion. and still not adressing the issue. please arrange a callback or any possibility to adress this pad issue. we spent 700 bucks on these machines.

Tagor
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Tagor » Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:30 am

i still hammering with my saussagefingers in gloves @the push1 and waiting for the push3 which will give me immidiate sensitivity shocks of responsiveness... hopes so...

antoinevg
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:47 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by antoinevg » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:43 pm

Fixed in 9.7 Beta 1.

Happy camper am I.

tedlogan
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by tedlogan » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:59 pm

It seems much more like Push 1 now - great. I'm in control of aftertouch again.

jestermgee
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by jestermgee » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:04 am

Even though I didn't experience the issue as much as others I can certainly say with some extra adjustments today it does feel more dynamic. Lots of nice tweaks in this update for sure.

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