Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

[mylkoa]

Yes, I suppose on the spectrum of virtue and vice he showed some benevolence... but again... I feel weird about those grey areas... I prefer to keep it simple... try not to take much more than you need... don't take from people that have less than you... that sort of thing.

Doing something good, isn't a license to do something bad., IMHO.

I think the rules for an ethical life are pretty simple in most cases... I think maybe things have run amok, partly because simple truths becomes complicated and obscured.

[sporkles]

This is how things work nowadays. Everyone is the deceased artist's biggest fan. But I think people like Bowie, Prince and MJ deserve all the panegyric. Whether you liked their music or not, your existence would be quite different without them. I was never as big on Prince as I was on Bowie and MJ, but he was definitely a part of the soundtrack of my youth. I really don't see a problem with posthumous adoration when you've managed to reach out to so many people's ears and minds.

[yur2die4]

When a family member dies, you and your brother might reflect on that person a few days. You and your aunt might go to the restaurant you all would go to together. The people around you in the circle that knew your family member honor and grieve. Realize whatever impacts and truths in retrospect about the person. And realize even your own mortality.

When a celebrity dies, your 'circle' of grieves is much larger, but the details of the deceased person's life are from their art, or from the stories and videos.

All dead people carry with them baggage. We are born into an ocean of conditions and rules and we paddle and try to keep afloat. In the process, we might do embarrassing or irrational things. It's hard to have perspective on all that while you're alive.

[mylkoa]

When a family member dies, you and your brother might reflect on that person a few days. When a celebrity dies, your 'circle' of grieves is much larger, but the details of the deceased person's life are from their art, or from the stories and videos.

There are important differences between the two situations... the most prominent being that a family member or friend is one with whom a genuine relationship is possible. A genuine relationship requires a two-way interaction. Celebrity fandom is not a genuine relationship, because it is only one way (fan to celebrity, not the converse).

All dead people carry with them baggage. We are born into an ocean of conditions and rules and we paddle and try to keep afloat. In the process, we might do embarrassing or irrational things. It's hard to have perspective on all that while you're alive.

Certainly! Fallibility is an important aspect of growth, and celebrity-ism is baggage one does well not to carry.

[H20nly]

when you're alone (or even in a group) where life's pain/joy/spice are influenced, bent, directed, related to, or set loose by music... you form a relationship with the artist that you may feel close to because they seem to understand your _______. <--- inset feelings word here.

...then when they die, so does someone who is part of that experience/memory/time for you. i think that's what a lot of people relate to.

but yeah, i'm pretty sure a lot of *other* people are just your typical name dropping bandwagon rubberneckers... so it goes both ways.

[Machinesworking]

when you're alone (or even in a group) where life's pain/joy/spice are influenced, bent, directed, related to, or set loose by music... you form a relationship with the artist that you may feel close to because they seem to understand your _______. <--- inset feelings word here.

...then when they die, so does someone who is part of that experience/memory/time for you. i think that's what a lot of people relate to.

but yeah, i'm pretty sure a lot of *other* people are just your typical name dropping bandwagon rubberneckers... so it goes both ways.

H2Only nails it. The point there about "because they seem to understand your _______. <--- inset feelings word here." Particularly with music we tend to relate to the lyrics or the back story on the musician who creates the music. The connection is made even if it's one way because it is the artists intention to attempt communication. I had dozens of friends that were convinced Prince wrote When Doves Cry about their relationship, and that sort of connection is I think obviously a deeper one than is made with the governor of the state/provence you live in.

Of course we are marketed that connection, the sole intention of the industry is to get you to believe that Prince is human, and wrote that song to make a connection, which is all true, but the clincher and your deepest point mylkoa I think is this, that he did not write it directly for you. The fan is led to believe that Prince relates to them, and more likely the case would be upon a chance meeting that his bodyguards wouldn't of let you near him.

[mylkoa]

you form a relationship with the artist that you may feel close to because they seem to understand your _______. <--- inset feelings word here.

As an adult, I can't develop feelings that strong for any person that I can't actually speak with.

When I was a teenager I had a crush on a girl in my school for several years, and the feeling wasn't mutual... Still, I did have SOME interaction with her - she wasn't just a poster on my wall or a tape cassette in my music collection. She was at least tangible and accessible.

But that sort of thing would never happen to me as an adult, because I know that a relationship with a person is a two-way activity... not one way.

I do have strong emotional reactions to works of art, but that's different from having a "relationship with the artist".

edited for spelling...

[H20nly]

know thy self.

it's good that you do.

still... there are 200,000,000 Facebook users that think they know The Artist... in their hearts and minds.

and probably a good third of them really mean it.

[mylkoa]

and probably a good third of them really mean it.

Truth!

Or at least, they have convinced themselves they mean it

[mylkoa]

[H20nly]

[mylkoa]

Whether you liked their music or not, your existence would be quite different without them.

Oh, Sorry, Sporkles... somehow I missed your response.

I agree with you in some regard. My life would be slightly different... especially in the case of Michael Jackson... I did listen to some of his work, and still do on occasion... but I don't think it would actually be that different. There are so many works of art that I like, and respect, and have strong emotional responses too. I can't see the elimination of one artists repertoire, or even a dozen of them as having a profound affect, because I have so many others to reference. Gotta love the internet! It's a great equalizer for those who want it.

I really don't see a problem with posthumous adoration when you've managed to reach out to so many people's ears and minds.

In some sense, neither do I... but the character and amount of the adoration is what alarms me... and perhaps more broadly, the phenomena of celebrity-worship in general. I think it's one manifestation of a much larger phenomena that's holding many people back from greater personal growth, and It's setting the stage for other people to take advantage of them by planting the idea of an uber-man that should be worshipped... simultaneously decreasing the value of "smaller" people.

I don't buy into that sort of thing, and I think it's best to call it out.

[beats me]

There are important differences between the two situations... the most prominent being that a family member or friend is one with whom a genuine relationship is possible. A genuine relationship requires a two-way interaction. Celebrity fandom is not a genuine relationship, because it is only one way (fan to celebrity, not the converse).

I’d argue that sometimes an artist’s music resonates with you more than your dealings with people you know personally. There are many people in your life who are simply in your life because of circumstance – relatives, school, work, geography. Doesn’t mean by default they have more of an impact on you.

There are probably many conversations you have with people where you can’t relate to each other and as far as one way communication from an artist to a listener there are also a lot of conversations with people where they are only partially listening waiting for their opportunity to weigh in with their viewpoint or problems. But you could hear a song by somebody you have no contact with that you can deeply relate to, but you're saying because you don't communicate with them there should be no real connection to you and I'm assuming the bigger the celebrity or fan base the less meaning it should have.

[mylkoa]

I’d argue that sometimes an artist’s music resonates with you more than your dealings with people you know personally.

Hi beats me,
Yes... I resonate with you completely about resonating with another person's art
I feel that way a lot too. Often times I prefer to read something, over the opportunity to talk to a stranger sitting next to me on the bus - or something like that.

But it only takes a momentary encounter with someone that I do resonate with to put things into perspective.
Perhaps the most compelling support for me is a search of my memory... I remember a few moments in my life where art blew me away... but those aren't memories that pop up at random in my head and bring a smile to my face.

But if we expand the premise of memory-resonation to include non-animate things beyond art, then perhaps the ratio becomes closer to equal. I remember the first time I road my motorcycle, or the time I swam in an enchanting hot spring on the Oregon/Idaho border... those were powerful experiences. And I do recall those memories with greater frequency than I recall the memory of the first time I heard a Vivaldi piece on Classical guitar.

I suppose there could be a generalization here, or maybe just an observation... One could do an exercise, and think back to the best moments in your life... or if possible, a "best" moment... is the memory focused on an inanimate or animate subject? There is no correct or incorrect answer, but the answer will reveal something about the questioner... Do you remember a work of art, an experience, or a person?

I think most people would say their most profound memory involves another human being... a first kiss, the birth of a child, the death of a loved one, etc. And I think that tells us a lot about our needs as human beings. One could go to Maslow's needs theory here...

In any case, that's a great observation on your part, and I totally get you. Thanks for bringing it up.

[stringtapper]

What it sounds like you're arguing against, ultimately, is a focus on the person rather than on their output.

Celebrity is a consequence of the output combined with other factors of circumstance and culture. People have been amazed by the output of "celebrities" for ages and that amazement can map onto their own identities, self images, and senses of self worth, which can translate into them being "amazed" by the celebrity themselves. And so people start to idolize the celebrity because they see them as being something beyond what they can ever be because the celebrity has done something that they themselves feel they could never do. Like many things, this has always happened, it's just that there are 7 billion chances for it to happen now and our melange of hyper-connectedness and mass media consumption in this age puts it in our faces more than ever.

So is it a bad thing? Personally I'm not into moralization about such matters, so I'll leave that to you. I will say that I think that the "engaging in celebrity worship vs. being informed about the 'real' troubles in the world" binary that you appear to present is a false dichotomy. There may be a lot of dumb people on the planet but I think that even they probably have the ability to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, figuratively speaking. Does it really have to be an either/or situation? I can choose to follow Prince's estate debacle or Bernie Sanders's campaign, but not both? Or I'm somehow superhuman if I can watch American Idol at home while I make an online donation to Human Rights Watch? In my opinion the Orwellian fears inherent to this argument are a bit overblown, but maybe that's just me.

But going back to the point of my very first sentence I hope you can see the irony in your thread essentially engaging in exactly what it presumes to be against precisely because it's not about Prince's output, but rather his status as a celebrity. So I think that very first response you got was essentially dead on.