"dj'in with Live"..I just do not get it?

[Tarekith]

Putting DJs on a stage was one the worst things to happen to club culture IMO. DJing is not, nor should it be (IMVHO) a visual artform. DJs should not be worshipped for how they look or act while playing music ina very simple way. As soon as DJs started getting on stages, they started acting and expecting to be treated like rock/pop stars, and before you know it, you've got DJs charging $10k/hr to spin two records. That in turn raised the door charges, which forced bars to promote those nights excessively, and soon people just expect a "big name" before they'll go out clubbing.

The best DJs understand that it's not abotu the way you play the music, it's about the music you play. DJs need to see the dancefloor, not the otherway around.

Just my $.02 though, I'm sure many will disagree.

[olafmol]

as much as I enjoy the projectionist joke, I know that in 5-10 years time it will be irrelevant.

I feel like current technological asvances have pretty much eliminated the boundary between performing electronic musician and DJ

when I started out I had a couple of SH101s , a korg Mono-poly and some old drum machines that I played and programmed right there on stage. Not because the gear was cool and retro, but because it was current!! That was all we had. DJ's had to use vinyl because that's all they had.

Right now I feel like electronic musicians and DJs have been building a technological tunnel and just now have they met in the middle with a confused look on their faces.



In 10 years time there will just be a big 'multimedia performance' grey area with video and lights in there alongside making noises to people.

The whole idea of 'separation' is wrong and purely historical, you can occupy any part of the spectrum you want to, are able to - or is required by the situation.

i'm afraid you forget the fact that "the masses" mainly like what they already know (from the radio and MTV)

[hambone1]

Natural selection will sort this one out.

Those with talent and creativitiy to understand and use today's and tomorrow's tools will create and fill dance floors.

Those without that skill and foresight should justifiably feel threatened that their vinyl/CDJ/Traktor livelihood is facing extinction.

I'm not worried.

MY 2 cents. (Or is it 2 pence?)

[Angstrom]

nothing to stop us playing stuff that people know .. I never said that we shouldn't ..just that the illusion of separation is purely historical. It is not now relevant unless you really want to perform in a historical "DJ" style like some 1920s jazz style recreation act.

[robin]

Musicians can survive quite happily without DJs, but without musicians, DJS would have nothing to play.

You do realise that when talking of electronic dance music this statement simply isn't true.

The two are very tightly intertwined throughout history (since Francis Grasso started doing his thing at the start of the 70s) .

Come to think of it when people like Walter Gibbons and Tom Moulton started making the first 12" records out of edits from other peoples tracks there was massive resistance from the musicians that did the originals. They didn't mind the huge boost in sales that eventually came from this though.

The two have been reliant on each other ever since.

If you are unaware of who these people are and you are involved in electronic music then find the Tim Lawrence book "Love saves the day". It's a great read.

Edit: Nice article on Walter Gibbons

[robtronik]

personally, the only use I see for Live is for people who want to use it as a musician. That means tiny clips, original composition, lots of live VST, strong relationships with your audience, effects and improvisation.

autowarp of techno & "DJ'ing" is for deeply retarded muppets.

I agree.

using live to perform an actualy Live performance is where its at. Not as a Dj tool (solely)

That last sentence is where we differ. There really isn't a difference between DJing and "a live performance" to the audience. The same challenges exist for interacting with the crowd and "delicately" pushing buttons, instead of manually messing with vinyl.

I'm not sure how you can really make that distiction that one is o.k. and removes the challenges while the other (DJ'ing) isn't.

I think this is semantics and it's all the same. One person uses other's music, another uses their own. But it's still Live 5 and you all still have the same options as the DJ vs. the original producer to perform and get the music out...

Even the original producer can opt to use vinyl of their releases w/ Live as well (on the flip side). So, its all one big melting pot as far as I'm concerned, IMO.

rob.

[claudek]

There is something very cold and impersonal I find with a person on stage hitting clips..I have found many dj's who can mix flawlessly but create a boring ambience or presence (selection of music, there presece etc.) .For example I would rather here a dj play less perfect but be human rather than act like a robot on stage and there is a non human feel in the club. I think the entire dance scene needs more human interactivity.
I rememeber seeing Kraftwerk on stage and was really bored after 30 minutes.
I do not agree beat mixing is sucha easy task some here claim. A dj creates his own feel and touch with vinyl and hands, backspins, cuts, etc...ICertain conditions in clubs can be very challenging as well.

[robtronik]

Putting DJs on a stage was one the worst things to happen to club culture IMO. DJing is not, nor should it be (IMVHO) a visual artform. DJs should not be worshipped for how they look or act while playing music ina very simple way. As soon as DJs started getting on stages, they started acting and expecting to be treated like rock/pop stars, and before you know it, you've got DJs charging $10k/hr to spin two records. That in turn raised the door charges, which forced bars to promote those nights excessively, and soon people just expect a "big name" before they'll go out clubbing.

The best DJs understand that it's not abotu the way you play the music, it's about the music you play. DJs need to see the dancefloor, not the otherway around.

Just my $.02 though, I'm sure many will disagree.

the only problem with this view is that it takes the idea that DJ's are the focus of attention for everything "other" than helping create the vibe of the room.

I used to think the same thing. But then when I started really DJing regularly, it was quite amazing the affect you could have on the crowd by looking at them. Then interacting with them. Shoot, sometimes I go out and dance to the tracks that I play and then run back to the booth. This isn't about showboating, its about letting people know you are into it... and that feeling can be contagious. Personally, I don't feel like that isn't a geniune thing - it really comes from a place of loving what you do.

There is no requirement for DJs to interact with the crowd at all. Many don't. But for those that do in timely or appropriate ways can get the reward of the crowd and a moving dancefloor.

The DJ as a rockstar is one extreme outcome of this though, and I think this is where you are rightly poking at. But there is another POV that says the DJ is part of the circle of give and take on the dancefloor and the more the are a part of that system/interaction, the better the dancefloor can be...

(unless of course, you are a total freako and really turn people off. This is an "art" you know. Not much science behind the "psychology" of a dancefloor. Maybe this is why the statement "House is a Feeling" still has relevance today and applies across much, if not all genres, of Electronic Dance Music and DJing.)

.02,

rob.

[robtronik]

Natural selection will sort this one out.

Those with talent and creativitiy to understand and use today's and tomorrow's tools will create and fill dance floors.

Those without that skill and foresight should justifiably feel threatened that their vinyl/CDJ/Traktor livelihood is facing extinction.

I'm not worried.

MY 2 cents. (Or is it 2 pence?)

Agreed 99%.

The 1% hold out is that the other tools (like CDJs and stuff) are useful and will still be used to the extent that music is produced and released in a format that is playable on those things. DJing is an art - and part of that art is choosing what tools are right for you to express the mix you want/need to.

The ergonomics of djing are now so varied and wide, that one can choose many ways to play back music - and those other options will hopefully remain valid and available. Variety is good.

IOW, can you imagine if there was only one MIDI controller type for Live? That would be so crappy. This is the analogy I'm trying to make. Variety for expression is a good thing.

,02,

rob.

[robtronik]

nothing to stop us playing stuff that people know .. I never said that we shouldn't ..just that the illusion of separation is purely historical. It is not now relevant unless you really want to perform in a historical "DJ" style like some 1920s jazz style recreation act.

YEP. Totally agree with this too. Lot's of good points here. Y'all some smart muthafunkas.



rob.

[subterFUSE]

From a clubbers point of view, I don't really mind hearing 1 track respectfully beatmixing into the other all night.
The fact is, at 'underground' club nights, I have never heard 95% of the tracks being played - so I wouldn't know if they were teasing in a new hi-hat and actually mangling loads of parts together or whether it was the original production.
Obviously it may 'add' to the performance but then I'll never know because it's still going to be sequenced electronic music that I haven't heard before.
The extra power doesn't neccesarily translate across to the audience. I'm not sure it would even to me, who is *probably* more appreciative than your average clubber.

I would have to agree with this.

I listen to/play progressive house, and there are always different sorts of folks in your typical crowd. There's usually a large number of people who know very little about the music you are playing, and there's also a few DJs out there who might recognise your music. So, if I were to re-edit some tracks in a very original way.... and play them through Live... there is a small chance that those DJ types out there may recognise the music, and actually understand that I'm mixing them in a way that wouldn't be possible on turntables. So there may be some level of appreciation there.

But for the normal people who don't follow dance music releases like a DJ does... they would never know. So for them, it just comes down to.... the vibe. Does the music coming out of the speakers make them want to dance?

I noticed this phenominon when I heard Sasha play an Ableton set. He started out mixing some of his tracks from the Airdrawndagger CD.... and since I recognized those tracks so well, I knew he was mixing them in a unique way that could not have been possible with turntables.... because he wasn't using the whole tracks... but just some of the parts from each. As a DJ, I was able to appreciate that. About 95% of the crowd probably had no idea he was even mixing.

[GK]

lol ! What a TSUNAMI of opinions...

i've heard many many classic 'beatmatch with ear' deejays and they've played loads of CRAP.i've listened even PERFECTLY COMPILED and at the same time MEANINGLESS dj studio mixes sold for 20 bucks on the stores..

beatmatching is a skill , and its just a tiny bit of djing...face the truth.

i can respect every little 18year old with good taste who can digitalmix various styles of music and sounds...

and "professional" djs can kiss my ass. [sorry mods ]

[olafmol]

nothing to stop us playing stuff that people know .. I never said that we shouldn't ..just that the illusion of separation is purely historical. It is not now relevant unless you really want to perform in a historical "DJ" style like some 1920s jazz style recreation act.

as soon as music (technology) became a littlebit more complex there has been a room for "reproduction", starting out with a live band playing covers, moving to a jukebox, ending with a DJ playing other people's music. I think there will always be a space for DJ's playing other people's music using decent programming. There have been all kinds of theories about multimedia performances and next-level performances etc, but in the end most people that visit a club simply want to get drunk/high, dance to music they know and enjoy and end up with a date to go home with. And on the other hand you have live gigs, where bands play their own music or covers.

I agree though that somewhere in between them is an interesting area where a tool like Live can be of much use, but as far as DJ'ing is concerned (ie: playing other people's music in the right order for your dancefloor audience) it doesn't have much uses except convenience.

imho a new kind of performer will appear, maybe we have to call it something like a "DJ performer" or a "DJ/producer/musician" or whatever to make clear that he/she is taking the classic DJ approach to a different level, mixing live performance aspects with playing other peoples music and remixing. This way people can know what to expect.

Olaf

[Angstrom]

You might have misunderstood me a little ... I'm totally fine with the idea of the next-gen DJs playing people's tracks end to end .. full tracks with a wee crossfade at the end. Sometimes it's good to do that to break up the technically intense segments. Audiences often like to hear a good track from start to end.

What I meant by ' historical "DJ" re-creation' is that in the year 2056 some guy playing vinyl on two vintage technics because that was the way it was done in Ministry in 1995.

I mean the definition of DJ is now one of choice, I could turn into a DJ halfway through my 'Electronic musician ' set ... I could turn into an Electronic musician halfway through my dj set. The separation is now history.

[claudek]

Putting DJs on a stage was one the worst things to happen to club culture IMO. DJing is not, nor should it be (IMVHO) a visual artform. DJs should not be worshipped for how they look or act while playing music ina very simple way. .

I agree somewhat with above....but then anyone can sit up in the dj booth or even the clubowner could hit Live clips..I mean even one could drop in a dvd of a long mp3 mix that would play all night..