Clipping between devices in an instrument rack

[aderowbotham]

When I place several devices on a channel I can see the input / output audio level between each device.

But once they are grouped into a rack (such as an instrument rack) you then only get the input level to the chain and the *final* output level from the chain.

When they are grouped is it still possible to get clipping between devices? For example if I boosted too much with EQ or had too much resonance on a filter. And if so is there any way to check those levels?

Or are they now treated as one device so it's *impossible* for clipping to happen?

I am using Live 9.7

[aderowbotham]

Further to this... having done a test, even when not grouped Live seems to sound OK even if the levels between devices are in the red, providing that by the last device the output level is not clipping.

For example, if 3 devices are boosting the signal into the red but you put a Utility on the end set to say -10dB then this seems to sound OK.

So I guess Live is allowing headroom in the chain regardless of whether they are grouped. Is there any official documentation on this?

It would still be useful to see those levels between grouped devices, I feel.

[Stromkraft]

Further to this... having done a test, even when not grouped Live seems to sound OK even if the levels between devices are in the red, providing that by the last device the output level is not clipping.

For example, if 3 devices are boosting the signal into the red but you put a Utility on the end set to say -10dB then this seems to sound OK.

So I guess Live is allowing headroom in the chain regardless of whether they are grouped. Is there any official documentation on this?

It would still be useful to see those levels between grouped devices, I feel.

Live has a 32bit audio bus (with 64bit summing). That's not a reason to go into the red. That doesn't make your sound louder or anything. You want loud turn up your monitors. I suggest you skill up on gain staging, compression, saturation, distortion and limiting.

[Erroneous info deleted] I suggest you find it yourself in the manual. You don't have read everything, just what you're focused on currently, but it's a great read I think.

[aderowbotham]

Live has a 32bit audio bus (with 64bit summing). That's not a reason to go into the red. That doesn't make your sound louder or anything. You want loud turn up your monitors. I suggest you skill up on gain staging, compression, saturation, distortion and limiting.

I'm a qualified sound engineer. I have 20 years experience in all of this. My point is that I want to avoid anything hitting zero dB. My second post, if you read it carefully, was a test case, not something I would do routinely.

I'm not telling you how as that would be to do you a disservice.

Really? It just seems rather unhelpful of you, to be honest. I spent some time searching the manual before making this post and couldn't find how to show meters between grouped devices in a rack.

But thanks for the reply anyway.

[Stromkraft]

It just seems rather unhelpful of you, to be honest. I spent some time searching the manual before making this post and couldn't find how to show meters between grouped devices in a rack.

No, I did (unintentionally) do you a disservice by responding before my first cup of coffee. I was wrong on this detail. Just forget it.

[Stromkraft]

When they are grouped is it still possible to get clipping between devices? For example if I boosted too much with EQ or had too much resonance on a filter. And if so is there any way to check those levels?

Or are they now treated as one device so it's *impossible* for clipping to happen?

Well, using any meter plug-in would be the obvious solution to find that out. This would also show you that, yes it's possible to clip.

As you can see here where I'm driving a kick over 0dBFS with Saturator (all within the track strip).

[aderowbotham]

OK, thanks - that's a good suggestion. I hadn't thought of using 3rd party metering plugins.

Pre-coffee reply forgiven!

[Stromkraft]

OK, thanks - that's a good suggestion. I hadn't thought of using 3rd party metering plugins.

Pre-coffee reply forgiven!

Well, it's only natural to look for native solutions and features first.

I think I need a "Are you sure you have had your coffee yet?" filter on my browser. Freshly grounded cooking up.

[Angstrom]

Firstly - it sounds like you want the Audio factsheet.
https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/audio-fact-sheet/

not that it will answer questions specifically, but it has all the facts in there about where the app is 32 bit floating point, and where it's 64 bit. etc. Plus some other interesting info regarding how Live handles audio.

So, although there's plenty of headroom in this 32 bit floating point environment with 64 bit summing "at all points where signals are mixed" ... I would still quite like a bit more of a visual indicator between devices regarding signal amplitude.
These days live has a few more non linear response plugins (which I applaud), including the obvious ones like Compressors, Saturators / Overdrives, but also the Cytomic filters in Autofilter. These sort of effects vary based on input, so for that reason alone I'd enjoy a nice simple signal meter device.

And BTW, yes, I've got a bunch of M4L ones, but it seems a bit of overkill to load a separate app to look at a meter!

[Stromkraft]

And BTW, yes, I've got a bunch of M4L ones, but it seems a bit of overkill to load a separate app to look at a meter!

Sonalksis FreeG is my favourite meter plig-in that I actually trust more than Live's as there were some inconsistencies in 9.2 and onward. Maybe that's gone now. Works great in these situations as well.

[lunabass]

I love the Sonlksis Free G for this very reason too, very handy plug-in. I've actually made some preset racks for particular plug-ins with poor or no metering that include the Free G.