Bit of politics? Lovely......

[computo]

do you think owning a gun will really proect you?? Have you ever fired one at a real life moving baddie who's comin to getcha??

most deaths that occur from guns or knives during an attack end up being the owner who's far less experienced in such matters than your average thug. you're probably better off learning a martial art if you really feel that vulnerable.

Dude, you are an idiot. I have had a gun in my hands since the age of 9, and thats not because my parents like guns. they hate them. They have never owned one, and other than bb guns, I havent either. But if you really think that some fucking drug-deprived, wanna-be gang member can handle a gun better than a trained adult, then Im sorry, but you will likely be looking down the wrong end of a gun, should you end up in a disaster zone like New Orleans.

Im sorry, you suggest close combat as a safer or better idea than a long range weapon? Move on, friend. Your war-experience is not needed here. lol

[D K]

interesting post, good points,
but the comparison of % stuff with the uk is kind of unrealistic considering
the uk is as big as a single state in the u.s.
the amounts are quite staggering for sure, tho.
very sad.
d

[forge]

if you work out the statistics in YOUR life of how many friends or acquaintences YOU DIRECTLY know who have been raped, murdered, shot, stabbed etc and then compare it to any statistics on crossing the road or any other life hazard you might ever encounter, you probably wouldnt end up wearing knee pads and a helmet every time you cross the road, nor would you buy a gun.

We're all going to die one day and I'd much rather enjoy the time I've got making music, not fearing the reaper.

While I totally agree with the second paragraph, the first one, well oz is much less insane than the US.

I know personally at least three people who've been murdered, my vocalist is 20 , and a good friend of hers was murdered.

I know on person who was hit by a car, and honestly, he wasn't the brightest person, hard to say it was the drivers fault, and he did live.

The main problem with owning guns is you would really have to have them on you at all times to have them be effective as defense weapons. When we got arm robbed, our rack of guns and rifles was about 25 feet away from the bed and couch my family were sitting on.

even still, you're still FAR FAR more likely to die from cancer or heart disease, which are REALLY horrible ways to die, and it is becoming more and more clear that it's related to diet and lifestyle, but those statistics rarely get us turning vegan.

4 people in your lifetime is still a pretty small number of people considering how many people the average Iraqi or Sudanese will have witnessed, granted it shouldnt happen in a "civilised" nation, but having more guns has alot to do with the reason America has such a high rate of murders - it numbers into the tens of thousands a year which is a huge number more statistically than most other supposedly civilised nations which control guns more tightly.

[forge]

interesting post, good points,
but the comparison of % stuff with the uk is kind of unrealistic considering
the uk is as big as a single state in the u.s.
the amounts are quite staggering for sure, tho.
very sad.
d

yes and no - it's more about scale of economy, Britain is still 4 largest economy, and 60 million people is a fifth of the US population, the the statistics are probably pretty comparable in that sense.

[D K]

interesting post, good points,
but the comparison of % stuff with the uk is kind of unrealistic considering
the uk is as big as a single state in the u.s.
the amounts are quite staggering for sure, tho.
very sad.
d

yes and no - it's more about scale of economy, Britain is still 4 largest economy, and 60 million people is a fifth of the US population, the the statistics are probably pretty comparable in that sense.

so in other words top 4 economies, 1/5th population ..looking at the %s'......
we're neck and neck?!
mind you, just playing devils advocate, since we're discussing evil
anyway...
d

[forge]

no-one said neck and neck!

like you said, lesser of two evils.....

[Macrostructure]

1)You didn't add in medicare and medicaid and welfare and farm subsidies, nor socialised education, nor socialised arts programming (I'm still torn on that one),ect, ect, that is not defined in the constitution as being a responsibility of the FEDERAL Government.
2) The science behind the THEORY that man is responsible for any global climate change is arrogant and unclear. The earth is warming, but it does so periodically like before the last ice age. I do think it is responsible practice to have air pollution under control, but I don't believe man can significantly change the atmosphere. If we could then we could've steered Hurricame Katrina away.
3) All these conspiracies are entertaining, but I no more believe them than I do the science behind the global warming crowd, it's all political crap.
4) I don't own a gun and never will. If I need to defend my family I will do so by other means. The United States and Spain and Great Britain and Indonesia and Morroco and Algeirs and.....were all attacked by an identifiable foe, they should persue that foe and render it null and void. Sometimes it is not violence that ends a dispute, but usually that is when no violence has already occured. Such was the case with U.S. and Soviet relations, all puffing smoke and no fire. I believe that will be the case with North Korea and other nation states. Al Queda has no representitives at the UN and never will because they don't negotiate, they only wish to kill us all.
5) Smile have a good night.

1. I was answering another question and did so accurately
2. Climate change is caused by man made pollutants. Do the research. Your argument about Katrina is completely illogical. Just because we cannot control hurricanes does not mean we cannot accdentally pollute the atmosphere so much the climate changes. Think about it.
4. Your argument is so contradictory. For starters you are a pacifist but are happy to have violence used on your behalf?
5. You too.

[Macrostructure]

Since this a Ableton Live forum for most musicians an not politics. I have to ask you this questionsince you post this topic for discussion. What is your point behind these numbers? I would like to know more about the country your from an your political beliefs. It would seem you have a agenda behind this topic. Do you seriously want to talk about the numbers or terrorism?

We are humble bees who live in hamony within our own little hives. Every little humble bee knows we live with the killer bees amongst us who are very angry an want to strike at will but remained subdued for the time being. All humbles bees know the importance of defense to the trouble that lurks out there.

I post to disseminate information that I think more people should be aware of. The point is that with the so called "war on terror" we are fighting a war that we are fuelling at the same time, and it is ordinary truly innocent people who are suffering while the weapons manufacturers (aka politicians with boardroom seats) get richer. It is utterly monstrous.
I am from the UK and my political stance is Green and radical. Of course I have an agenda. You are reading part of it.
I'm quite happy to talk about both or neither. I'm trying to disseminate information and actually I don't think the talking does much good on here, it's the talking people do in their own minds afterwards using data they see on here that really matters when it comes to changing people's opinions. The actual talking tends to just be an exchange of entrenched viewpoints.

"Defence" is a euphemism. I don't see any defense going on at all. I see invasion for oil. You know that. And please save the bee talk, I'm not 5

[Macrostructure]

The lack of mentioning the illuminati in these kind of subjects, always strikes me as odd.

Is almost everybody ignorant to that subject?
Or am i just an idiot who has read a bit too many conspiracy theory's?

The thing that always strikes me about conspiracy theory's is that they target things that don't even need to be linked to a secret organization.
For instance, GWB is from a family that made it's money in oil. His father and him are very concerned with the politics of the middle east. There are all kinds of villains in African countries, and South America, as well as many other parts of the world, but we don't care. Considering Iraq is one of the top five oil countries on the planet, why do we need a conspiracy? Considering the UN was satisfied that Iraq had complied with inspections and did not have weapons of mass destruction, why would we need to try and figure out what is going on? Considering Bin Ladin hated Saddam almost as much as the Bush family, why would we as americans believe for a second that this was a preemptive strike?
When we as a nation have supported dictators and tyrants ( Suadi Arabia, Iraq in the past, Sha of Iran, Noreiga and other south american dictators, Indonesia, etc..), why would it all of a sudden be an issue to us that Saddam was an asshole? Why would we attack the only country in the middle east that Bin Ladin would be hard pressed to have a stronghold in? Remember Saddam was a dictator, if Bin Ladin was there, it would have been through an official invite, and Bin Ladin hated Saddam.
These people do everything out in the open, there isn't any need for secret societies, and satanic voodoo. Just convince enough people that attacking countries that are possibly going to make a nice profit for themselves is "fighting terrorism", and there you have it, double speak in action.
Seriously why do we even need conspiracy theories? Is it not too far fetched to think that if the US cannot get enough oil, our economy tanks? That maybe these people realize that, and are actively doing something about it? I don't agree with it, but I understand the motives. It's not really purely done through evil intentions, I think they seriously believe that the US is the only bastion of "freedom" on the planet, and if securing that freedom means invading a country like Iraq and getting a guarantee that your nation is first in line at their oil wells, well then that's what's going to happen.

Basically fuck the conspiracy theory bullshit, why chase ghosts and shadows when it's all there? All you have to do is look.

QED

[Macrostructure]

interesting post, good points,
but the comparison of % stuff with the uk is kind of unrealistic considering
the uk is as big as a single state in the u.s.
the amounts are quite staggering for sure, tho.
very sad.
d

Yeah, I agree, but I didn't want to just come over as a USA-hater, which I am not, so I put it in for a very slightly broader perspecitve.

[David]

Yep, their all just gangsters...

In fact, I think it may have been the Kennedy family who made their money in past times selling alcohol.

Alcohol, huh? Yeah, thats pretty scandalous, considering the Bush family's fortune was made betting on the Nazis!! Not to mention all of their friends from the Skull and Bones, who made their fortunes on say, HEROIN.

Alcohol. Laughable.

considering your wanting to buy a gun I would say your pretty laughable. Are you going to keep it next to your laptop?

[hoffman2k]

The lack of mentioning the illuminati in these kind of subjects, always strikes me as odd.

Is almost everybody ignorant to that subject?
Or am i just an idiot who has read a bit too many conspiracy theory's?

The thing that always strikes me about conspiracy theory's is that they target things that don't even need to be linked to a secret organization.
For instance, GWB is from a family that made it's money in oil. His father and him are very concerned with the politics of the middle east. There are all kinds of villains in African countries, and South America, as well as many other parts of the world, but we don't care. Considering Iraq is one of the top five oil countries on the planet, why do we need a conspiracy? Considering the UN was satisfied that Iraq had complied with inspections and did not have weapons of mass destruction, why would we need to try and figure out what is going on? Considering Bin Ladin hated Saddam almost as much as the Bush family, why would we as americans believe for a second that this was a preemptive strike?
When we as a nation have supported dictators and tyrants ( Suadi Arabia, Iraq in the past, Sha of Iran, Noreiga and other south american dictators, Indonesia, etc..), why would it all of a sudden be an issue to us that Saddam was an asshole? Why would we attack the only country in the middle east that Bin Ladin would be hard pressed to have a stronghold in? Remember Saddam was a dictator, if Bin Ladin was there, it would have been through an official invite, and Bin Ladin hated Saddam.
These people do everything out in the open, there isn't any need for secret societies, and satanic voodoo. Just convince enough people that attacking countries that are possibly going to make a nice profit for themselves is "fighting terrorism", and there you have it, double speak in action.
Seriously why do we even need conspiracy theories? Is it not too far fetched to think that if the US cannot get enough oil, our economy tanks? That maybe these people realize that, and are actively doing something about it? I don't agree with it, but I understand the motives. It's not really purely done through evil intentions, I think they seriously believe that the US is the only bastion of "freedom" on the planet, and if securing that freedom means invading a country like Iraq and getting a guarantee that your nation is first in line at their oil wells, well then that's what's going to happen.

Basically fuck the conspiracy theory bullshit, why chase ghosts and shadows when it's all there? All you have to do is look.

QED

Apart from me using the phrase "conspiracy theory", i think we're on the same line here.

And as far as the satanistic voodoo goes......
I don't think "skulls and bones" is the name of yale's ballet group.

Bush is just playing the life sized version of "Command & Conquer".
Collect resources, build an army and attack. Collect resources again, press 'save' and go to bed.
You need at least a 5 week vacation to get rested from that.

Hell, i'm no expert. I just watch the daily show and listen to a shitload of standup comedians.

[noisetonepause]

You cannot believe in one figure (god) and discredit the other (satan) as fictional.

Manichaeic bollocks.

There is no such thing as evil.

[hoffman2k]

You cannot believe in one figure (god) and discredit the other (satan) as fictional.

Manichaeic bollocks.

There is no such thing as evil.

Just like there is no god.
It's all bollocks really.

[Machinesworking]

You cannot believe in one figure (god) and discredit the other (satan) as fictional.

Manichaeic bollocks.

There is no such thing as evil.

Just like there is no god.
It's all bollocks really.

Archetypes help people to remain calm though. I mean I understand that without religion, most people would be very frightened, and consequentially because of their faith, they can be manipulated into doing things like flying planes into buildings and voting for GWB.
I can't write off people for this though, atheists are only 5-10% of the population in the USA, and 16% of the world population, ( nice to find out it was that high, just looked up world figures...) . Basically most people need religion, I just wish they wouldn't twist it into a way to kill each other.