multiple exports of the same live set sounds different

[liftoff]

I've taken the same live set, and exported it multiple times, using the same settings each time, and I've found the final rendered files to sound different from each other. To test it out, I've take the files and re-import them into to Ableton and you can see visually see a difference in the waveforms, and they audibly sound different as well. The differences are subtle, but noticeable. Sometimes it's the bassline that sounds louder. Sometimes it's a sweeping pad that sounds sharper. From what I can tell, it's always a midi file that differs. Is there something I am doing wrong that prevents me from obtaining consistent exported files? Looking for any suggestions.
many thanks!!!

[pottering]

There are dozens of functions with random options in Live and 3rd party plugins that play different every time.
From LFOs to Grooves.

[liftoff]

pottering, thanks for responding. That is interesting. Does anyone have any advice to have a midi-instrument play consistently each time? I've taken a midi-pad sound, duplicated it twice, and froze it on 2 lanes for comparison. There is a huge difference in the wave file. Even though each note is being played back in the same manor, the output changes every time. This makes it difficult to do fine mixing. Here's a frame grab with midi track on the top, the frozen tracks below it, and you can see a huge difference in the waveforms. THANK YOU!

[Da hand]

Does anyone have any advice to have a midi-instrument play consistently each time?

Well there are two ways.

1. You find what section/parameter of the instrument is causing the change on the MIDI instrument and turn that part off (or change the settings of that section/parameter so it stops doing that).

2. You freeze the instrument and then never unfreeze it again (or you freeze or flatten a few instances and keep the one you are happy with)

[Stromkraft]

Does anyone have any advice to have a midi-instrument play consistently each time?

Program as boring as possible without any dynamics and don't use any synths with dynamic properties and certainly not those that emulate analogue hardware features like drift and such.

Why you'd even would want that I don't know. If you want to freeze how it sounds all you need to do is make an audio version. I typically do this on every track before mixdown.

[timday]

Well that particular track looks like some slow running volume LFO or modulator is in a different phase for each track. Don't know what synth you have but maybe finding that LFO and setting it to a sync or trigger mode rather than a free running mode would make it consistent. That kind of thing.

[liftoff]

Thanks for all the replies! This is now beginning to make sense to me! Does anyone know if you can "reset" the dynamic properties so that each time the song starts, the dynamic random nuances happen in the same spots throughout the song? I guess freezing/flatten those specific instruments, would be the best way to achieve this. Let me know if anyone else has another suggestions.

Thanks for replying to this! It's been very helpful! I can't tell you how much it was driving me NUTS to hear how vastly different my exported mixes were sounding when I was just making some slight adjustments between the sets. At least that mystery was solved.

[Stromkraft]

I can't tell you how much it was driving me NUTS to hear how vastly different my exported mixes were sounding

A good way to learn more on what is different would be to import both exported audio files into two new ones and reverse polarity on one; for example with Utility's preset "Phase Invert". Make sure volume is set to the same. What you'll hear will be only what is different as what is the same will cancel out to zero.

You could also import both files into your favourite editor and paste one of them polarity reversed on top of the other.

[jestermgee]

Does it always playback in live fine but on export it tends to go random?

Yes:
Could be when Live does the export because of the increased speed it creates some kind of timing issue. Forcing a realtime export could fix it but would take as long as your song is to render. Look up ways to achieve this (such as inserting an external instrument rack).

No:
As mentioned you would have to find the parameter affecting the sound and check to see if it has options to set the sync/retrigger. You may find a trigger option and could insert an initialise pattern at the start of your song that simply plays the required note or CC parameter to set the start of the timing. Sometimes required with some instruments.

[liftoff]

I think everyone is right to say there is some kind of random LFO/modulation that is happening on specific patches, that causes it to sound different each time I export the song. Unfortunately I'm unable to locate where those modulations originate. It's possible they're buried somewhere within the patch.

Regardless, I think I found a work around. I let the song play all the way through from start to finish before I export it. That way all modulations are "resetting" and doing their thing in the same spots of the song. I think if I don't start/stop the song in the same spots, the modulation continues from that point and therefore doesn't give me consistent results every time.

If I freeze the track, this obviously "fixes" the issue.

thanks everyone!

[Pitch Black]

When I'm making a track that has random/free-flowing elements I'm always very careful about when to "freeze-dry" something. For works in progress, I like to keep things like Beat Repeats running free up until the time I render my first ruffmix. At that point I freeze or print the track(s) in question so that as I listen to the ruffmix, the "little randoms" become locked in as part of the experience, and I know I can always have them in the track going forward. Sometimes you want constant surprise and sometimes you want reliability - I think its quite an important part of the million little choices that go into making a track.

[jestermgee]

When I'm making a track that has random/free-flowing elements I'm always very careful about when to "freeze-dry" something. For works in progress, I like to keep things like Beat Repeats running free up until the time I render my first ruffmix. At that point I freeze or print the track(s) in question so that as I listen to the ruffmix, the "little randoms" become locked in as part of the experience, and I know I can always have them in the track going forward. Sometimes you want constant surprise and sometimes you want reliability - I think its quite an important part of the million little choices that go into making a track.

Great advice.

I have been frustrated by even an update to a VST that caused a slight difference to how something worked. Omnisphere was one where I had a few LFOs working on echos and other aspects but after an update from Omnisphere 1 to Omnisphere 2 I open that old track (to try and finish it off again) and now the echo on that instrument doesn't match with what I remember and throws off everything I had. Can't even tune it back.

Need to get into the habit of making rendered tracks at a certain point.

[liftoff]

When I'm making a track that has random/free-flowing elements I'm always very careful about when to "freeze-dry" something. For works in progress, I like to keep things like Beat Repeats running free up until the time I render my first ruffmix. At that point I freeze or print the track(s) in question so that as I listen to the ruffmix, the "little randoms" become locked in as part of the experience, and I know I can always have them in the track going forward. Sometimes you want constant surprise and sometimes you want reliability - I think its quite an important part of the million little choices that go into making a track.

Pitch Black - this is really great advice! Thank you!

[liftoff]

I have been frustrated by even an update to a VST that caused a slight difference to how something worked. Omnisphere was one where I had a few LFOs working on echos and other aspects but after an update from Omnisphere 1 to Omnisphere 2 I open that old track (to try and finish it off again) and now the echo on that instrument doesn't match with what I remember and throws off everything I had. Can't even tune it back.

jestermgee - I totally agree! I'm glad to hear that I wasn't the only one being effect by this nuance. You're right, I need to get in the habit of freezing tracks as a go. Thanks!

[Stromkraft]

I think I found a work around. I let the song play all the way through from start to finish before I export it. That way all modulations are "resetting" and doing their thing in the same spots of the song. I think if I don't start/stop the song in the same spots, the modulation continues from that point and therefore doesn't give me consistent results every time.

I'm not following you logic here. A reset of automation happens as you move transport. An export should start everything in the beginning of the Arrangement, including free modulation, no matter where the transport is and no matter what went on before.

If this is Session exports then that may be different as I'm not certain what is the beginning in that case.

Another alternative to exports is recording the master/main buss. Takes maybe longer, but you hear what is going on while it's recording.

Recording/Flattening is underrated. To do everything live does mean that it's indeed live and nothing is as certain and predictable as a recording.