latency issues with send/returns

[nicolasvr]

Hello, i'm new to Ableton since a month and i come from a NI Maschine-background, where i use a lot the sends on a track

I wanted to work this way through Ableton by sending several different tracks on a project to a send/return track and then route that send/return track to an audio track with LFO Tool on it, which is configured with a nice sounding flanger-kind of filter.
I don't want to send all those tracks directly to the LFO because i don't want that filter to have effect all the time. And i also got those tracks in their respective groups (drums, synths,..) with other tracks i don't want to send to the LFO Tool.

Why i have decided to not put the LFO TOol directly onto the send/return track is that i want it to receive MIDI-info from my MIDI keyboard through a trigger so that it changes the envelopes that affect the cutoff-filter and the resonance inside LFO Tool,
and this is not possible on a send/return track, so i put it on a audio-track and create a MIDI track with the trigger. I then routed the send/return to the audio track and when i dial the different sends from the music tracks to LFO i get a very clear latency..

What you guys think of this?

here's an image of the same setup just a little more basic: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipM ... R2NjNLWGJR

[Stromkraft]

I then routed the send/return to the audio track and when i dial the different sends from the music tracks to LFO i get a very clear latency.

Only when you do this? Really?

Anyway, you need to turn off the send to the return track or live with the minute latency this potential loop adds. Likely any truly noticeable latency stems from something somewhat different.

[nicolasvr]

Anyway, you need to turn off the send to the return track or live with the minute latency this potential loop adds. Likely any truly noticeable latency stems from something somewhat different.

so there's no other workaround to avoid this latency?

[Angstrom]

automatic latency compensation requires the latency in a stream to be calculated so that it can be offset against. It calculates the latency of each stream from beginning to end, then puts all the streams in time with the slowest one.
If you set up a routing loop, what is the latency of a loop signal path?

How long is a circular road?

that's why PDC doesn't work on any signal path that is in a (potential) feedback loop. There's a section about it in the manual somewhere.

[nicolasvr]

that's why PDC doesn't work on any signal path that is in a (potential) feedback loop. There's a section about it in the manual somewhere.

yes i see. i got it solved for a certain degree by adjusting the track delay of the audio track with LFO Tool on it.
How would you otherwise recommend this set-up? The thing that doesn't leave me a choice is the need for a trigger to trigger LFO tooll and keep these MIDI triggers saved

[Stromkraft]

Anyway, you need to turn off the send to the return track or live with the minute latency this potential loop adds. Likely any truly noticeable latency stems from something somewhat different.

so there's no other workaround to avoid this latency?

You mean what you want is a feedback loop? This track must send back to the return that routes to it?

[nicolasvr]

This track must send back to the return that routes to it?

?
There is no feedback loop because my instruments/drums tracks go through a send/return track, via their corresponding send knob, that is then routed to an audio efx track. Where would then be a loop?

[Angstrom]

The efx track, does it have a send knob on it?
From the pic it does.
That send sends to itself. Potentially.
So, that's the potential feedback loop. There's a section of the manual about it.

[nicolasvr]

There's a section of the manual about it.

alright, i'm going to look it up but like you see on the picture it doesn't actualy send to itself

[Angstrom]

There's a section of the manual about it.

alright, i'm going to look it up but like you see on the picture it doesn't actualy send to itself

You misunderstand the situation. Ableton still has to calculate the potential latency at 0% of Send.
Imagine if they didnt. So IF at 0% send it was assumed to be a normal track with no feedback and so like any normal track latency offset could be calculated with PDC ... then imagine if you decided to turn the send up to 0.1 in that situation. Now suddenly the latent path is now in a feedback, latency would not be able to be calculated or offset and at that point they would have to turn off PDC for that track and it would jump out of time with a click. Every time send crosses the threshold. Click click click

So, back to what they REALLY do, send==0 is treated as equivalent to send ==0.01 and send ==99 its all a potential feedback loop, this is in order to avoid clicking and sudden timing changes.

[fishmonkey]

There's a section of the manual about it.

alright, i'm going to look it up but like you see on the picture it doesn't actualy send to itself

to be clear, to avoid the feedback loop, you need to disable the sends on the FX track that the Return track is routed to (LFO Tool), and the group track (efx return). right-click on the Send knobs on those tracks and select "Disable Send"...

[nicolasvr]

to be clear, to avoid the feedback loop, you need to disable the sends on the FX track that the Return track is routed to (LFO Tool), and the group track (efx return). right-click on the Send knobs on those tracks and select "Disable Send"...

alrighty, it did the trick! how could this be?

thanks al for you time and help

[Stromkraft]

to be clear, to avoid the feedback loop, you need to disable the sends on the FX track that the Return track is routed to (LFO Tool), and the group track (efx return). right-click on the Send knobs on those tracks and select "Disable Send"...

So eloquently described.

[frappastudio]

There's a section of the manual about it.

alright, i'm going to look it up but like you see on the picture it doesn't actualy send to itself

to be clear, to avoid the feedback loop, you need to disable the sends on the FX track that the Return track is routed to (LFO Tool), and the group track (efx return). right-click on the Send knobs on those tracks and select "Disable Send"...

Thanks so much - I was searching for latency issues but I was basically resending the signal to the aux once arrived to the bus. Solved!