Too many USB devices in use?

brms · Post by **brms** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:40 pm

Hi! I've been having a serious problem during the last few very important shows I played with Live.

Sometimes, during a live-show, USB devices get disconnected out of the blue.
It can happen to my audio interface, but also other devices.

So I'm guessing it's not because any of my devices is broken, but because of some USB thing.

I purchased the Anker USB hub with 7 ports, which was supposed to be the best on the market. It has all high quality material, big adapter.
I purchased all high quality usb cables.
But it still happens.

So I'm really not sure what the problem is. Maybe it's software related?

I use 8 devices for my live-show:
RME Babyface audio interface
Behringer midi controller
Fishman tripleplay wireless midiguitar device
2x Softstep
Midi Expression pedal usb device
Yamaha Usb to MIDI device

I really hope someone can help so I can play my gig stress-free again!

Thanks!

Stromkraft · Post by **Stromkraft** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:50 pm

brms wrote:Hi! I've been having a serious problem during the last few very important shows I played with Live.

Well, have you investigated that your hub delivers the proper electricity to your devices? During long time periods?

brms · Post by **brms** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:54 pm

I think it cannot be that, because I always connect a device to the 2nd port on the Macbook, and sometimes this also gets disconnected. It's devices both from the 1st and 2nd USB port on the macbook that may get disconnected.
It get the impression that it has to be something in the USB circuit inside the macbook.

Other than this, I don't know how to investigate the amount of power that my hub delivers to each device, but I do know that the hub I have is supposed to be the best on the market in terms of delivering power, and my devices don't require a lot of power. I used extra AC adapters for the devices in order to need to least from the hub.

It seems that something is just conflicting somehow, but I think it's not the power because I've tested this in various ways.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:06 am

That does seem like a lot of things to be running at once, but it's hard to say for sure if the sheer number of devices is what's causing the problem. Are you running a USB2 or USB3 hub?

jestermgee · Post by **jestermgee** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:13 am

Scientific controlled test?

Have you ever setup your whole setup and left it running for a few hours or played around for the same duration as a gig to see how things perform?

If you can replicate the issue under controlled conditions you can then just disconnect a few things.

It could be a power spike if this occurs only at a venue which in that case you could get a small Active UPS or power conditioner strip to filter the power.

I have a large mobile DJ setup which has to perform well in all kinds of situations. I constantly stress test it especially for a week or 2 before a gig. Since I own and operate all the gear, if something goes wrong it's all my fault.

brms · Post by **brms** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:42 am

jestermgee, that's interesting.

It's true that at home, everything usually works fine.
It's only on gigs or other locations where it sometimes happens.

In general it's very hard to test, because on other locations, it also doesn't happen all the time, I'd say only 20% of the time. And not at home. So it's very hard to test at home.

But my project/show/act is quite a special thing, as I always play outside on the street, not in a venue, on an aggregate (not sure what the english word is, I'm dutch, but I mean a mobile power machine that works on gas), and not normal electricity. (btw if you're curious, here you can see the whole setup/thing/idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FvKTUMBzMo ). I'm triggering a huge street fairground organ with midi stuff.

So a power spike does seem quite logical.

I have no experience with Active UPS or power conditioners, but I'll have a look into this. Or maybe you have some recommendations on what kind of device this is or how I can get it.

It could perhaps also be because of playing outside? Sun, wind, I dont know? (Not rain, we protected that).

Thanks !!

jestermgee · Post by **jestermgee** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:36 am

Yeah this makes more sense now you have explained things a bit more (details always help)

mobile power machine that works on gas

English it's a Generator (or GenSet) and these can always be a source of dirty power especially if they are powering a lot of loads, specifically if you have anything that has motors that will start/stop these can cause fluctuations and spikes or brownouts (which is a very short loss of power) in the supply.

For your gear I would recommend a small 1000vA UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) just connected to the sensitive stuff (PC, USB hub and your MIDI gear. Don't run any amps or anything through it:

This is a "cheap" ended one. Most active ones will have an LCD display so you can see the power input and output values.

You can get these from most electronic supply places and computer specialists etc. What you want is one that offers "active power filtering" (normally called an "active" UPS) which means the the power is filtered and supplies a constant output. It has an internal large battery that will keep supply going if power is lost. 1000vA should be enough for your gear but if in doubt, try and total the amount of wattage you need to supply and seek one with a wattage rating that will fit.

The next thing to consider is heat if you are outdoors and sun is directly on your laptop it could cause internal temps to shut down parts of the system. I've had that with amps before so always carry a fan with my setup but just something to shade it would help.

That organ is awesome BTW, I love things like that.

brms · Post by **brms** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:06 pm

Great, thanks, I'll have a look into it.
Thanks a lot!
And glad you like the organ project

brms · Post by **brms** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:05 pm

Could there actually be more ideas? Because actually it also happens sometimes when there's no Generator, and when the power just comes from the normal net.

Could it possibly be software related?

Or some fault in the internal USB circuit?

I remember one time, the entire left USB port of the mac didn't work for a day, whatever I plugged in.
However after a few days it worked again.

Could have been the heat because it was pretty hot outside then.
But.. it's just that strange things happen all the time with my USB stuff, either inside or outside, on normal electricity or generated electricity..

I just want to get as many ideas possible in order to be safe for my next gig in november

Thanks!

jestermgee · Post by **jestermgee** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:07 pm

Only other thing I can think is to use a whole other PC and try with that... if the issue remains, it's not the PC specifically.

brms · Post by **brms** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:36 pm

Yeah.. Guess you're right.. Thanks!

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:08 am

Have you considered vibration as a possible culprit?

Asking because the only times I've ever lost USB connectivity has been with me banging on the controllers too hard.

Are you doing anything to islotae your mac from bass vibration, or from "player enthusiasm"?

Based on my experience, I think sometimes just a super-momentary disconnect of a USB plug in a socket can cause USB to freeze/disconnect/go a bit screwy. I get the feeling that just a momentary bad vibration / disconnect can freak the system out.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:20 am

brms wrote:I remember one time, the entire left USB port of the mac didn't work for a day, whatever I plugged in.
However after a few days it worked again.

Could have been the heat...

P.S. That is quite a red flag IMHO. Whether it was caused by heat or some other thing at the time, the fact is you could possibly now have an intermittent fault (the best kind!

) in your Mac.

For which the only solution as said above it try it with another Mac.

Only other thing I can think of: try replacing ALL the USB cables in your patch in case one of them is intermittent, and bringing the system down?

Hope these random thoughts are of some help!

chapelier fou · Post by **chapelier fou** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:14 am

i recently had this type of issue with one of the usb port of my macbook pro. The usb driver card was broken and had to send it for repair.
Works well now.
Although, i still have issues with a lot of gear plugged into a (powered) usb hub. The hub adapter can go quite hot and eventually breaks.
My advice : if some of your gear can be powered externally, do it. For instance, the RME and the Behringer controller.
Also, spread your devices across the two ports. I know for a fact that they are not the same regarding the power they can provide.

fishmonkey · Post by **fishmonkey** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:01 am

the ports are also on separate internal USB buses, so it is not a bad idea to put some thought into which devices use which ports...

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