Live 10 upgrade path

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
Razz CE
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 12:53 am

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Razz CE » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:48 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
Razz CE wrote: and I will probably never switch DAWs because the workflow itself is worth the price of admission for me,
I wonder if you've ever spent time learning one of the "non specialized" DAWs like Logic, Cubase, Digital Performer, Reaper?
I use other DAWs along with Live specifically because the workflow is slower in Live. At first when you get into Live it's faster, unless you get hung up on something
you speed right along, but after a song is at it's halfway mark, fleshed out but not finished, it slogs down. The lack of key commands for common functions, lack of screen sets and other
"conventional" tools from the DAWs I mentioned starts to make the process of actually finishing a song crawl.

I've spent significant time with a few different DAWs. Studio One Pro 2 and 3, Samplitude Pro X and X2, I spent a little time in FL Studio but ultimately found it too awkward and unintuitive. After I went through a rough patch with S1 I finally gave Cubase a try and I love it. It's for a different purpose though. I do production and sound design in Live. When the beat is done, I export stems to Cubase and record vocals and/or guitar, and do all the in depth mixing and all the finishing touches in Cubase. It works for me.

I used to campaign for comping in Live. I still think it would be really useful to record multiple runs of a midi part, duplicate the clip and swap portions in and out for a really effective and low effort way to add variety to a tune, but since buying Cubase I don't really care much if Live ever adds comping. The way Cubase does comping, and they way its comping interacts with its audio editing view, warping and built in pitch correction, plus track versions (this is huge for me) is just so far beyond anything I could realistically hope Ableton would add to Live. To that extent, I get what you're saying. But for how I use Live, I don't think anything will ever replace it. Especially because of Push 2 and now Capture. These are pretty important to me.


I stand by my statement though. I think Live is fantastic. I wouldn't want to produce in anything else.
Win 10 x64/16GB/i7 6700k
Live 9 Suite/Cubase Pro 9.5
Audient iD4/Push 2/Steinberg CMC-CH/Launchkey 25

daizok
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:05 am

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by daizok » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:01 pm

Razz CE wrote:Especially because of Push 2 and now Capture. These are pretty important to me.

Not hearing too many people (either rave or rant) about the capture feature. It's one of the most useful new features for me as well, been using it all the time since the beta, works like a breeze.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11078
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:20 pm

Razz CE wrote:When the beat is done, I export stems to Cubase and record vocals and/or guitar, and do all the in depth mixing and all the finishing touches in Cubase. It works for me..................I stand by my statement though. I think Live is fantastic. I wouldn't want to produce in anything else.
So yeah, you're not producing in Ableton then. You're coming up with initial ideas in Live and finishing them off (producing) in Cubase.
That's pretty much how I've worked in Live forever as well. ( Producer initially meant music studio person hired to adjust the mix, maybe even rearrange your songs or add parts, generally polish off your rough songs. I get that to a lot of people it means electronic music composer, but even then it probably originated from the remix culture.)

It's probably why Ableton have been more focused on the composing side in upgrades lately than performance. Which I agree with you is an at some point losing battle in terms of the final parts of production, since Cubase, Reaper, Logic etc. are already far beyond where Live can get to in terms of final production features like comping, VCA faders etc.

Anyway yeah, I guess I'm just bouncing around this thread getting used to this feeling I have that Live isn't going to be one of my main DAWs anymore. I was over at a friends house and he had a Roli Seaboard 49 set up at first in Ableton, all messed up, not easy setting up 10+ tracks to record Equator properly from an MPE keyboard like the Roli. Standalone the thing is amazing, built like a tank.

ruido_outpost
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:17 pm

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by ruido_outpost » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:59 pm

zeropoint wrote:

I consider my upgrade pricing a big FU from Ableton so I will be returning the complement.....
This.

ruido_outpost
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:17 pm

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by ruido_outpost » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:06 pm

scheffkoch wrote:...what was the reason you bought live in the first place?...the "problems" you describe were already there when you bought it so why didn't you buy studio one when it's "all you've been waiting for"?...
Because I can produce with live 100% faster than I can with Studio One, but as soon as you get into the nitty gritty of things such as micro-editing, working with lots and lots of tracks (200+), video and stuff like that that other DAWs can handle just perfectly fine, Live is a piece of shit. but the way it is built around you owning the signal-chain is what keeps me working with it; no other DAW can do the stuff live can, really, but it should decide whether it should be a DAW or a sounddesign-tool.

The features Studio One has that is all I've been waiting for is things like how manages projects, track groups, how it edits audio, has comping and stuff like that. Not how I can design audio with it, because spoiler alert; I can't, because it not meant to be a sound design tool first, as Live is.

All effects in Live sounds like shit, but they are all bread and butter and it forces you to connect them together and make your own rack chains and signal chains. This is the strenght of live, that, coupled with the nondestructive editing. But now Live wants to be a DAW withouth proper DAW features, and *some* of them recently got added in to Live 10, and lo and behold, I should pay 229 euros for that shit. For something that should have been there to begin with.

I (re)bought Suite under the impression that I should get a decent upgrade path and that Suite 9 should have come enough way that it could actually handle real-life studio projects, and not just beat makers and people working with 30 tracks where 15 of them are midi-tracks.

Angstrom
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Angstrom » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:17 pm

Machinesworking wrote: It's probably why Ableton have been more focused on the composing side in upgrades lately than performance. Which I agree with you is an at some point losing battle in terms of the final parts of production, since Cubase, Reaper, Logic etc. are already far beyond where Live can get to in terms of final production features like comping, VCA faders etc.
Which makes it strange that Ableton added those few additions to Arrangment in L10, like the (not very elegant) slip editing, or the stretch in place, or the automation view.
So there was some focus on arranging but I'm not sure what elevated those features as the ones to deliver. I can't say that arranging is any easier in L10 than it was in L9. Perhaps it's even slightly more difficult.
I "slip edit" all the time and the implementation of this in Live 10 is not helpful as we can't see the out of bounds wave so it's just guesswork re placement of the bounds - and consequently still better to do it in clip view where the full wave and the braces are all visible.
So, they spent time adding stuff to arrangment but the things they added were very weird and I can only assume they benefit Push users, or people sampling MadBeatz, etc.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11078
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:53 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: It's probably why Ableton have been more focused on the composing side in upgrades lately than performance. Which I agree with you is an at some point losing battle in terms of the final parts of production, since Cubase, Reaper, Logic etc. are already far beyond where Live can get to in terms of final production features like comping, VCA faders etc.
Which makes it strange that Ableton added those few additions to Arrangment in L10, like the (not very elegant) slip editing, or the stretch in place, or the automation view.
So there was some focus on arranging but I'm not sure what elevated those features as the ones to deliver. I can't say that arranging is any easier in L10 than it was in L9. Perhaps it's even slightly more difficult.
I "slip edit" all the time and the implementation of this in Live 10 is not helpful as we can't see the out of bounds wave so it's just guesswork re placement of the bounds - and consequently still better to do it in clip view where the full wave and the braces are all visible.
So, they spent time adding stuff to arrangment but the things they added were very weird and I can only assume they benefit Push users, or people sampling MadBeatz, etc.
I've been messing around with Reaper, funny, I got Logic Pro X as a replacement for DP because MOTU for some reason still don't have any choices for rendering beyond typical stereo and surround. You can of course buss to tracks and freeze all your tracks, but stems involves bussing everything to tracks, then recording in real time etc. I end up talking to some Windows using musician friends and/or poor friends and we're going with Reaper as a way of collaborating. It's the Anti-Live, it took me a day or so to set up some basic functions I wanted out of a linear DAW etc. but it's insanely powerful. A feature Live and every other DAW should have is it's rendering features. You can render to stems it takes no time to insert tracks into folders, which busses the tracks to that folder, name and select the folders then toss in some render options, name, project and bpm in my case, then faster than real time you have bass, melody, drum etc. stems. The fact it lets you rename the stems with your own choices VS Abletons way says it all.

I'll probably always use Live for live performance, Reaper is extensible, and if Max patches seem scary to you, then scripts written in java by end users would be murder. Even with that, for more linear songwriting, after the initial mind raping learning Reaper puts you through, once you have it set up the way you like to work, it's just better. Live is great for live performance, and they have a fairly intuitive way they would like you to work, but in terms of the UI you're done. They thought it out and you're along for the ride.

Funniest part is Logic is amazing, and at this point in many ways the halfway point between Live and Reaper, but I'm dead set on getting to know Reaper well because of the easy collaboration part, convincing someone to spend $60 VS $450 for Live, or even Logic's $199, straight away is a winner.

kitekrazy
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by kitekrazy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:26 am

Stromkraft wrote:
regalpierot wrote:@Stromkraft : I might be missing something but it sounds like you went through all that selling\rebuying nonsense to ultimately go from Live 9 Suite to Live 10 Standard, thereby losing access to a bunch of Instruments and Effects including the new ones in 10. I may be missing something there but 9 Suite beats 10 Standard IMHO.
I already have plug-in instruments, specifically the free TyrellN6. Madrona Labs Aalto, Cakewalk Z3TA+ 2, Waves Element, Massive, FM8 and Reaktor that I feel are superior to what comes with Suite and I stopped using anything but Simpler/Sampler and Electric years ago.

So there was nothing or very little in Suite I felt I couldn't give up, except for Max For Live which is why I bought that.

The final nail in the coffin was that I decided Ableton wasn't likely to update Sampler any time soon with reading loop points — meaning it throws away years of work put inbto sample libraries at import — so I gave up. I'm looking to use either Kontakt 5 or Reaktor samplers as alternatives and I'm looking at the TAL-Sampler as well. I guess this means Ableton will update Sampler very soon, so if anyone wants to sell their separate Sampler license at a bargain price PM me. Could be good to have around anyway.

I'll keep using Simpler for drums, but I use mainly synthetic drums for my stuff.

My main advantage with stepping to Standard was to clear my mind space of the Suite synths, so I don't have to feel irritated they're just there or use them and feel they let me down. I saved a few €s as well, but that was not the main objective.
This was an excellent post. Even though I have the Suite I just find 3rd party apps are much better and easily replace what is in the Suite. I doubt I would ever get around to learning Max for Live. I will stick with 9. I still have so much to explore in it.

kitekrazy
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by kitekrazy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:32 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Angstrom wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: It's probably why Ableton have been more focused on the composing side in upgrades lately than performance. Which I agree with you is an at some point losing battle in terms of the final parts of production, since Cubase, Reaper, Logic etc. are already far beyond where Live can get to in terms of final production features like comping, VCA faders etc.
Which makes it strange that Ableton added those few additions to Arrangment in L10, like the (not very elegant) slip editing, or the stretch in place, or the automation view.
So there was some focus on arranging but I'm not sure what elevated those features as the ones to deliver. I can't say that arranging is any easier in L10 than it was in L9. Perhaps it's even slightly more difficult.
I "slip edit" all the time and the implementation of this in Live 10 is not helpful as we can't see the out of bounds wave so it's just guesswork re placement of the bounds - and consequently still better to do it in clip view where the full wave and the braces are all visible.
So, they spent time adding stuff to arrangment but the things they added were very weird and I can only assume they benefit Push users, or people sampling MadBeatz, etc.
I've been messing around with Reaper, funny, I got Logic Pro X as a replacement for DP because MOTU for some reason still don't have any choices for rendering beyond typical stereo and surround. You can of course buss to tracks and freeze all your tracks, but stems involves bussing everything to tracks, then recording in real time etc. I end up talking to some Windows using musician friends and/or poor friends and we're going with Reaper as a way of collaborating. It's the Anti-Live, it took me a day or so to set up some basic functions I wanted out of a linear DAW etc. but it's insanely powerful. A feature Live and every other DAW should have is it's rendering features. You can render to stems it takes no time to insert tracks into folders, which busses the tracks to that folder, name and select the folders then toss in some render options, name, project and bpm in my case, then faster than real time you have bass, melody, drum etc. stems. The fact it lets you rename the stems with your own choices VS Abletons way says it all.

I'll probably always use Live for live performance, Reaper is extensible, and if Max patches seem scary to you, then scripts written in java by end users would be murder. Even with that, for more linear songwriting, after the initial mind raping learning Reaper puts you through, once you have it set up the way you like to work, it's just better. Live is great for live performance, and they have a fairly intuitive way they would like you to work, but in terms of the UI you're done. They thought it out and you're along for the ride.

Funniest part is Logic is amazing, and at this point in many ways the halfway point between Live and Reaper, but I'm dead set on getting to know Reaper well because of the easy collaboration part, convincing someone to spend $60 VS $450 for Live, or even Logic's $199, straight away is a winner.
I've heard the excuse for Live's pricing that they have 5 major updates. That doesn't even hold a candle to Reaper. It's a very deep DAW. Live and Reaper are so different.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11078
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:03 am

kitekrazy wrote: I've heard the excuse for Live's pricing that they have 5 major updates. That doesn't even hold a candle to Reaper. It's a very deep DAW. Live and Reaper are so different.
The real excuse is this, they have many mouths to feed. AAS, and sample libraries that are licensed to them from other companies in Suite. They purchased Cycling 74, that couldn't have been cheap.

Of course Reaper kills all that, and yeah it's very different, there's a lot of scrip kids making extensions for Reaper, so unlike Max 4 Live where it's mostly FX and instrument plug ins, they're writing whole new things like controller scripts (I have one for Push 2 that's pretty dammed good!), plug ins that mimic Session View in Live etc.


There is almost zero thought put into user experience when first using the program though, I'm still in the process of putting together key commands for things I find in other DAWs with ease. The trade off is huge though, it's so dammed easy to make stems in Reaper, effortless, and you can easily get each one to take the name, project, BPM etc. in whatever order you want. I wish this was in Live, but alas, a DAW 10 times more expensive doesn't allow for group renaming. :x

Nokatus
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:06 am

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Nokatus » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:48 am

So, hmm... The Ableton knowledge base says this about Max for Live, in version 10: "Max is now loaded at startup, instead of when the first Max device is used."

It's loaded even before a Max device is used. Huh. Can someone confirm that this built-in Max isn't lurking anywhere in the Standard version of Live 10? ;) Like, that it isn't still built into the binaries and loaded at startup, and just unavailable to be used. If I go with Standard I would much prefer if it was 100% clutter free and didn't install or run anything that I'm not actually going to use.

(My subjective musings on the different versions: I have exactly the same reasons for going with Standard than Stromkraft there. I already have a professional selection of instruments and effects, a toolset I've invested in extensively throughout the 2010s. I absolutely don't need the bundled instruments or sample libraries, and consider a 70+ gigabyte wad of stuff merely a downside :). What interests me in this upgrade is the improved core workflow, multi-clip MIDI editing (I always work like this when composing in a linear DAW more suitable for that sort of thing, and now I can have some of that in Live too, whee), etc.)

sowhoso
Posts: 834
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:14 am

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by sowhoso » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:34 am

Machinesworking wrote: they're writing whole new things like controller scripts (I have one for Push 2 that's pretty dammed good!)
what script is that? thx!

Machinesworking
Posts: 11078
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:18 am

sowhoso wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: they're writing whole new things like controller scripts (I have one for Push 2 that's pretty dammed good!)
what script is that? thx!
Here's the video on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIXAYhWVr2w
The link for the download is right in the video description.

Fair warning, it's possible you have to disable some overtly aggressive security features in OSX if you're on OSX in order to get it to work.
I had to anyway. Once you get it up and running it's really nice, almost as good as Push 2 with Live. :)

sowhoso
Posts: 834
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:14 am

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by sowhoso » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:11 am

nice!

hopefully I can get it going here

thx again!

empirix
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:18 pm

Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by empirix » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:09 pm

the upgrade price is a joke, no way is it worthbthst
pure greed. ill stick with suite 9.

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