apple g4 vs. pentium 4? (i know, redundant, but pertinent)

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:17 am

In what fantasy land? Not only do you need a special, expensive 64 bit chip (think more expensive than PPC), you'll have to special order a 64 bit clean version of Windows...
thanks for backing me up on that one :)

Well, that'll be true for the G5s as well until Panther (10.3) comes out. There's an interim OS version called Smeagol (10.2.7) that enables OS X on the new Macs for the time being, but most likely is still 32-bit.
Putting 32 bit vs 64 bit aside, there's little advantage for Live users either way, because Live reads its data right from the hard drive! Pretty much all that advantage gives you is concurrent access to more than 4 GiB of memory. This feature is useful to everyone in the world except for Live users.
I think the faster bus speeds (up to 1GHz!) will help a bit, the Fast Serial ATA *certainly* will help in that regard. Certainly VST and Audio Unit effects, once re-jigged a bit for the new processor, will sound smoother and you should be able to run more of them in parallel without having to bounce tracks.

Strictly speaking, more RAM is always good because then you can have a big buffer for nondestructive edits and for playback buffering (=less latency, no dropouts). Plus most of us are using it in concert with another app via ReWire - once you load up on NNXT's and Malstroms Reason becomes quite the processor/RAM hog...roll on G5!

That being said, yes, modern P4s set up with XP can be quite stable. If you feel more comfortable on the PC platform and find it cost-effective, go for it. That being said, I've run OS X since day one and have had precisely one problem - due to a bad disk sector, not the OS. By contrast I see all sorts of flakey stuff with our 'custom built, carefully managed' Windows 2000 boxes at work. And don't get me started on the whole Registry thing....ugh. Your mileage may vary, of course.[/i][/quote]

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:26 am

Certainly VST and Audio Unit effects, once re-jigged a bit for the new processor, will sound smoother and you should be able to run more of them in parallel without having to bounce tracks.
Not 'cetainly' at all actually. There is nothing stopping a coder form performing a 64-bit operation now the only disincentive being the speed hit of course. Most peoples ears and setups won't notice the slightest bit of difference unless they are Stockhausen and/or have top-notch recording/listening facilities which doesn't include going live through a PA unless you happen to be someone like Peter Gabriel.

The above poster was correct in stating that the people who will gain most from 64-bit ain't the like of us Live users. The addressing is fabulous for huge servers and serious video types. The bus speeds and raw grunt are were we gain which adds weight for more use of things such as Altivec/SSE2 and also gives a pointer as to why amD/Intel will always by sheer resources and pressure of competition will always outgrunt anything Apple chooses to adopt if they keep insisting on being so 'independant'. Why didn't Motrola get things up to Apples requirements? Because it is just plain peanuts to what their business generates with things such as microcontrollers in cell-phones, commercial goods, etc.

The new cpu Apple are adopting is without doubt a great move and a spiffy piece of silicon but 1) boy will you/we have to pay for it and 2) to exrapolate the best from a core with ongoing development takes resources and huge amounts of money which in turn needs income and a REAL requirement to do so. The rules opf engagement are different between the C and Mac platforms and no matter how much someone doesn't like the idea Intel/AMD have been pretty darn clever at getting 'more from their core(tm)' and have FAR more fabrication/know-how/demand and just plain resources to get to a next hurdle pretty quickly. It may be 'old' technology but then the humble engine and loudspeaker are as well, the cathode-ray tube has done pretty well also.

The true answer if you want more grunt in your system, if you insist on staying digital, and not have to be so beholdent to whatever your platform provides is to add some parallel grunt (re DSP) while everybody else argues the toss about which OS/CPU/Bit-depth is 'better' because as sure as eggs is eggs there will be something else that will strip that 'added extra' down quite a few notches within 6 months that will have your bank-manager smiling and thinking "He'll be back!!" in a subliminal Arnie voice.

You are paying through the nose for a very small short-term advantage (and that's debateable given how cheaply a dual Xeon setup can be put together for now) with Apple hardware as beautiful as it is from a design point of view.

Be happy whatever platform. I would argue that bigger gains would be had on either side by adding a further step to the development cycle of software hat seems to have disappeared. I would even suggest that what we pay for these days is pretty much BETA status software going from old yardsticks. Once the app is running as intended it should be optimised the SHIT out of, gradually moving core functions from C/whatever to highly optimised assembler even. THAT would yield greater results than the leaps the chip manufacturers can realistically provide but again it requires know-how and money. Oh, and a WILL for it to happen so hat's off to those who want Altivec optimisation (and that's from a PC user/developer) as it would be a startand so would the same on SSE2 (which is no slouch by any means).

Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling. 64-bit isn't the panacea many think it will be for audio purposes but it'll sure help shift a few boxes and arouse a few erections no doubt. :lol:

jamief
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Post by jamief » Sat Jun 21, 2003 9:54 am

i think we should see sometyhing good on monday

Alex Reynolds
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Post by Alex Reynolds » Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:02 am

Anonymous wrote:You are paying through the nose for a very small short-term advantage (and that's debateable given how cheaply a dual Xeon setup can be put together for now) with Apple hardware as beautiful as it is from a design point of view.
Paying through the nose? Macs aren't really much more expensive than Wintel boxes when you get down to the details. For that matter, dual Xeons are easily as expensive as top-end G4s, if not more so!

It would be nice for the trolls here to give it a rest until Monday, when we'll see some pricing on the G5s. Go make some music or something.

I'll bet even if the pricing was competitive, you guys would find some reason to start your usual Mac-bashing again... :roll:

-Alex

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:35 am

Alex. If it makes you feel better i'll log in, just for you. It gives you the opportunity to feel superior and call someone a troll because they have a differing view from yours though so don't knock it.
For that matter, dual Xeons are easily as expensive as top-end G4s, if not more so!
I was OBVIOUSLY comparing the Xeon setup with the forthcoming dual 2Ghz units (when they arrive). There isn't anything that exists as of this second to comparee with on the G4 front. Apologies for not spelling it out.

There was NO Mac bashing in my post as you put it. Try taking evening objectivity lessons for a few weeks maybe? I cn garuantee I've funnelled at least five times more in to mac hardware, including the failed lisa back in the late eighties, than yourself and have a pretty good idea (A) how much a decent PC setup costs (and you don't need to buy a Dell, in fact you can buy FAR superior for less if you know what you're doing) and (B) have been blessed to be in the position of helping people like you make music for over a decade now so why don't YOU go make some music?? :)

Yours, Inferior Troll

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:36 am

Oh, and what's the betting that said dual 2GHz units will cost somewhere around the region of $4000? Then we'll come back and do the math again??

IF

mic-minimal

Post by mic-minimal » Sat Jun 21, 2003 12:55 pm

I wish we could discuss this topic without getting all bent out of shape, it's an important passionate subject to anyone depending on computers for part of if not all of their recording/ creative process, but the fighting over platforms is counter productive and gets in the way of us learning from one another.

I like macs, but I don't like apples marketing scheme. Instead of telling people that their product is different and why, they tell people that people are different if they use apple products, that's ignorant, and the fact that they spend millions of dollars on that message is a real turnoff for me, but I will have a powerbook soon because I already have a pc and would like to have both. do you ever see a dell, gateway, toshiba, or ibm commercial
telling you that you are different because you use their products, of course
not, they talk about what their products do. with dell it's customer service, with gateway it's we'll teach you how to do stuff, with ibm it's we'll make your business information secure or whatever, apple definitely has a problem and who ever is in charge of their marketing scheme should be fired.
it's just a computer, not a family member, and as far as which is better I'm not a technician or anything but this is my understanding in laymens terms.

Live runs much better on a pc whether it's Intel based or AMD
Live is not optimized for the Mac
Live is also not optimized for Intel
Live is also not optimized for AMD
If Live was optimised for the Mac (altivec) it would still be much slower than it runs on the PC
right now the top of the line Mac will not run Live as good as a Pentium 3 pc
the creator of the Live software uses a Mac but says that Live runs much better on a pc

since live has come out I've gotten all of this information straight off of this
forum, this is why my main system is a pc and my go between will be a powerbook. its as simple as that and it's not personal. I think we should stop the bickering before we get to the point that we don't like certain music because it was made on a mac or pc.

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:41 pm

very well stated indeed. amen.

Ryan

astromass
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 1:11 pm

Post by astromass » Sat Jun 21, 2003 8:25 pm

enuff with the hardware wares....

just go make music with what ya got! hell, go getan akai s950 and an mmt8 and get in touch with the roots, then come back to LIVE and then use this forum proper!
sheesh!

ps: i love my tibook 867...werd.

+()Dd
nyquist theorem and nyquil...

paulkeeley
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:27 pm

wow... look what i started.

Post by paulkeeley » Mon Jun 23, 2003 4:35 am

hey everyone. thanks for the feedback. i have to admit, i didn't exactly intend to start a war, mind you i have noticed in the past how worked up people can get over their computers... myself included.

so, pcs are faster. yeah, i kind of figured that. however, if there is indeed truth to this 2ghz ppc970 thing, i may just end up shelling out the big bucks and picking one up. however, if such a configuration isn't included for the new powerbooks, which it most likely initially won't, i'm going to have to pick up a pc laptop. at least for the interum. perhaps a nice vaio or something, just to be able to perform with. then i'll come back in a year and see where apple is at.

...but damn, i'd like to get laid - maybe i will pick up a tibook... ;)

seriously though, thanks again for all the insight, and sorry for bringing up a touchy subject. it has been worth it though. here's hoping monday brings some good news.

peace out.

Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:47 pm

bump

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