Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

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Mr D
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Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Mr D » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:46 am

H folks,

If i drag and drop a midi clip from session to arrangement, the automation envelopes that were written inside that clip get transferred to the track automation lanes.

But i'd kinda hope / expect that the aut. envs would stay inside the clip (as i prefer to edit envelopes in a clip, rather then on a track).

Soooooo .......... is there a way to achieve this? Perhaps it's optionally and i just need to know how / where to change it?

Thanks!.......... Mr D

[jur]
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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by [jur] » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:17 pm

That's the nature of automations in Session vs Arrangement.
What you want is to use modulations instead, but then don't forget that unlike automations they works relatively to the parameter's current value.
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Mr D
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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Mr D » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:41 pm

OK, thanks!

So am i right in thinking that as long as you set it up right, the end result is identical?

I mean using modulation automation instead of normal automation.

So as long as you start your automated parameter at it's most extreme setting, then automate (with modulation) from there, the result will be the same?

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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Fanu » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:31 am

This is by design: in Session, automation is in clips.
In arrangement, it's on its own lanes (that you can open many by clicking the + sign).
And this has nothing to do with modulation per se.
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Mr D
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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Mr D » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:58 pm

Fanu wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:31 am
This is by design: in Session, automation is in clips.
In arrangement, it's on its own lanes (that you can open many by clicking the + sign).
And this has nothing to do with modulation per se.
Sure, but in arrangement you can also have modulation automation inside clips (so, not in lanes), right?

The point is, there might be times when you want to start composing in session, add some automation, but at some point you need the greater flexibility of moving those clips over into arrangement........

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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Fanu » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:39 pm

Mr D wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:58 pm
Fanu wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:31 am
This is by design: in Session, automation is in clips.
In arrangement, it's on its own lanes (that you can open many by clicking the + sign).
And this has nothing to do with modulation per se.
Sure, but in arrangement you can also have modulation automation inside clips (so, not in lanes), right?
You're right; but he asked about automation.
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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Mr D » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:53 pm

The "he" was me!

I think we're just getting hung up on words, i'm calling it "modulation automation" but you're just calling it "modulation"!

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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Fanu » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:01 pm

Mr D wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:53 pm
The "he" was me!

I think we're just getting hung up on words, i'm calling it "modulation automation" but you're just calling it "modulation"!
Automation and Modulation are two different things.

Answered a related Q here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=234216&sid=c3171951 ... d119cd6c38

My Live Basics video (link in sig) also shows and explains the difference.
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Mr D
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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Mr D » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:14 pm

Yes, i agree, automation and modulation automation are the same thing!

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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Fanu » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:17 pm

Mr D wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:14 pm
Yes, i agree, automation and modulation automation are the same thing!
I don't know who you're agreeing with.
There is no such thing as "modulation automation".
You have automation and modulation.

Manual p. 316.
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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Mr D » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:55 pm

Listen you idiot, you can have modulation that isn't automated, for example when you map a knob on your midi controller to knob on a plugin.

When you record that movement into your DAW, you're automating the modulation. I don't give a shit what it says in the manual, i know what is commonly meant by these terms in the world of music production. But i wish you luck in the future with your non-standard use of these words.

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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Tarekith » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:12 pm

Please treat each other with respect, we ban people who can’t follow the community guidelines posted at the top of each forum. Thanks.

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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by [jur] » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:28 am

Yeah, frankly Fanu you got quite pedantic here and not helpful at all by being so pointy.
The point here was to explain or find a workaround for the OP, and it was already obvious that the OP knows the difference between automation and modulation before you chimed in.
So, period.
And as I said Mr D, you should use modulations lanes to achieve what you want when copying clips from Session to Arrangement.
Session Automations are only automatically copied over to Arrangement as automation lanes by recording a Session in Arrangement (hit the Global Record button; launch your clip(s) in Session). And, no need to insult other people back.
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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by deerdoexx » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:06 am

I learned a lot in this discussion. I was confused about the relationship between Session and Arrangement automation.

Too bad different color text or something was used in Session View's envelope drop downs, so you would know what will stay in the clip and what with go to the Automation lane.

It's confusing at first. But now it's a moot point because I have the knowledge!

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Re: Copy midi clip to arrangement: automation env. doesn't stay in clip?!

Post by Fanu » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:44 am

Image

Emphasis on or.
Literally trying to correct one's terminology so one can talk about the right, exact thing.
10.1 will actually bring a button to easily switch between these two: https://www.facebook.com/fanubreaks/vid ... 426196626/

Saying "modulation automation" is like saying "compressor limiter", and somebody will be asking you which one you mean.
I correct in the same way, helpfully, when people mix flipping "phase" with flipping "polarity" as well, for example, trying to underline the correct terms, or when they say the need to compress their song to make it loud (while they're limiting it).
Also, automation is what gets recorded; modulation does not get recorded.
I'm pointing out things that are literally in the user manual.
But I guess it makes me "a pedantic idiot".

Have a nice day, folks.
Last edited by Fanu on Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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