LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different - FIXED in Beta 10.1.2b3

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Pitch Black
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LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different - FIXED in Beta 10.1.2b3

Post by Pitch Black » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:51 pm

Hi All

Is this a bug, or just an unavoidable feature of the new Delay effect in 10.1?

Here is a project made in Live 10.0.4 - I have a Simple Delay in a Return track. That Return track is sending back to itself to create a Dub delay/feedback regeneration loop.

You can see in the pic below I've done some automation of the Simple Delay's beat division (the 16th buttons) parameter. The Simple Delay is set to Repitch mode, so it gives a nice squeltchy sound as the delay time is modulated.

Image

If I open the same project in Live 10.1, the Delay has a completely different sound and behaviour.

In the pic below I've rendered the Delay return from Live 10.0.4 on track 1, and the (new) Delay return from 10.1 on track 2.

Image

It looks MASSIVELY different, and the sound is MASSIVELY different - the repitch/squeltchy characteristics are completely different. It would appear the new Delay effect handles the speed up/slow down of the Delay time very differently.

FWIW I tried clicking the "Upgrade" button on the Delay plugin in 10.1 and it made no difference/improvement.

This behaviour currently breaks my methodology/dub delay setup. Am I doomed to stay in 10.0.4? Is there any way of getting the old Delay sound/behaviour in 10.1? Surely they shouldn't sound so different?

EDIT - posted some audio examples. The same project opened up in 10.0.4 and 10.1:

10.0.4
http://www.mediafire.com/file/9lcue22u8 ... r.mp3/file

10.1
http://www.mediafire.com/file/fa3w21uqn ... r.mp3/file
Last edited by Pitch Black on Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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garyboozy
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by garyboozy » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:15 pm

ouch, that's a huge difference in sound

chapelier fou
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:10 pm

This is scary, as, for once, I jumped straight to 10.1 and already worked on it massively. Didn't notice anything wrong, but since...
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[jur]
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by [jur] » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:00 pm

REPORT!!!
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Angstrom
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by Angstrom » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:14 pm

There are some issues with the new delay interpolation.
I reported them in the beta but no response.

L10-BUG-6481

timday
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by timday » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:22 pm

I've noticed that it responds differently to automation. I have a 1/16 sync delay in a set I use for performance that occasionally switches to 1/8 with sync division controlled by the Max API object (which is itself automated). After upgrade the same settings produced 1/8 delays going to 1/4. Tweaking the automation fixed it, it seems that the settings map onto automation differently (slightly further down the range for my particular one). So you *might* be able to get it back by moving your automation envelopes up or down.

PS I realise that my automation route may be complicated and you probably aren't using a Max device. But it might work anyway.

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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by Angstrom » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:56 pm

It's odd they didn't do the "legacy" thing they usually do when a device gets an update. A button on the top bar of the device that when pressed converts old devices in old sets into the new version.

Thats the established Ableton way.

But then ... Ignoring learned UI behaviour and doing it totally different for no reason is also their way.

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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by [jur] » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:48 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:56 pm
It's odd they didn't do the "legacy" thing they usually do when a device gets an update. A button on the top bar of the device that when pressed converts old devices in old sets into the new version.
I think it was supposed to work this way... Maybe that's where the issue's coming from.
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by Angstrom » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:01 pm

[jur] wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:48 pm
Angstrom wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:56 pm
It's odd they didn't do the "legacy" thing they usually do when a device gets an update. A button on the top bar of the device that when pressed converts old devices in old sets into the new version.
I think it was supposed to work this way... Maybe that's where the issue's coming from.
Oh that's weird. I never saw the "legacy" mode in the betas. as soon as the new device was available every set which contained a simple delay the Simple Delay just changed into a Delay. There was no option to choose, it just changed with no reversion offered.
That's a bad bug then.

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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by [jur] » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:59 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:01 pm
[jur] wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:48 pm
Angstrom wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:56 pm
It's odd they didn't do the "legacy" thing they usually do when a device gets an update. A button on the top bar of the device that when pressed converts old devices in old sets into the new version.
I think it was supposed to work this way... Maybe that's where the issue's coming from.
Oh that's weird. I never saw the "legacy" mode in the betas. as soon as the new device was available every set which contained a simple delay the Simple Delay just changed into a Delay. There was no option to choose, it just changed with no reversion offered.
That's a bad bug then.
There was the good ol' "update" button at some point, but I can't remember when (if) it was removed.
You can't recall seeing it?
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Angstrom
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by Angstrom » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:48 pm

[jur] wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:59 pm
There was the good ol' "update" button at some point, but I can't remember when (if) it was removed.
You can't recall seeing it?
You are right, I was being forgetful. here's what it looks like in an old set

Image

I misremembered what happened. Because the interface is so immediately "new" I remembered it as "the old sets automatically converted to the new device." Which it ... kinda does, but only graphically I assume. It's difficult to A/B test as I recently overwrote my L10 with an L10.1

Pitch Black
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by Pitch Black » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:11 am

Angstrom wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:14 pm
There are some issues with the new delay interpolation.
I reported them in the beta but no response.

L10-BUG-6481
Yep, it looks like the behaviour you note would also be the cause of my woes. You're driving the problem by automating delay time with the LFO, I'm driving the problem by automating delay time using the 16th buttons.

The interpolation or "ramp speed" or "ballistics" between values/speeds as New Delay changes time values in Repitch mode is different.

This is a HUGE and stinky bug for me. It breaks a big part of how I perform live. (Squeltcy-squeltchy-dub-dub-dub as personal expression...)

The pic of the resulting pitch curve you posted in your bug report looks like what I'm hearing:
[Attribution: Angstrom]
Image

I've emailed Support.
Last edited by Pitch Black on Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by Angstrom » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:24 am

--- edited, the image wasnt showing up before ... so I reposted it, turning the thread into a wall of duplicate images!
Last edited by Angstrom on Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pitch Black
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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by Pitch Black » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:29 am

^^ Yup

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Re: LIVE 10.1 New Delay Sounds Different

Post by Pitch Black » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:17 am

[jur] wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:00 pm
REPORT!!!
Do you mean post a bug report in the beta forum? Or "report" the issue to Abe support? Sorry a little unclear from your post :oops:

I think Angstrom's bug 6481 covers it, so I won't post a new one there.
I've emailed Support though, along with sent them the live Set.

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