Help With Expression Pedal

[swanny8777]

Okay, so I feel like a complete newb for asking this question, but how the heck do expression pedals work with Live 10? I'm used to using them in MainStage 3 where the expression pedal just works so that you don't hear instruments when the pedal is at 0 and then you do when the pedal is at 127.

I am using an expression pedal connected to an Akai Advance 61. I know that I can MIDI map the CC11 to control volume levels of my MIDI instruments in Live (though so far my results with this have been very choppy), however, to get this to work I have to have the Remote function turned on for the keyboard's MIDI Port; this is undesirable for me because the keyboard has other MIDI notes hard-programmed in that can cause issues (currently) and we have volunteers that use the keyboard (we're just wanting to safeguard against any button presses that shouldn't happen).

All of that context to ask, does an expression pedal not just work with MIDI instruments like the grand piano? If so, can anyone help me out on what I might be doing wrong or missing?

[jlgrimes]

My guess is that the Ableton 9 preset on the Advance might have the Expression on a different CC? You might want to change this on the preset and then save it.


Alternatively you can set up the controller as an Ableton Remote Controller and then use it to map to any parameter on the Ableton GUI.


Hard to weigh the Pros and Cons but the Remote option might work better for studio use and the Midi CC option maybe better for live performance use but probably just a preference thing overall.


I have an Advance by the way and am trying to incorporate the Expression Pedal into my gigs. More just as a method to keep my hands focused on keyboard playing and the Expression pedal for special effects such as filter sweeps and/or controlling levels.

[doghouse]

Your problem is you are trying to MIDI map the expression pedal. Live reads CCs just fine without requiring Remote to be activated, your mod wheel works, right?

The problem is your software instruments, not the keyboard. Some instruments respond to CC#11 by default, some can be configured to do so, others will never respond.

[swanny8777]

My guess is that the Ableton 9 preset on the Advance might have the Expression on a different CC? You might want to change this on the preset and then save it.

You should never have to turn on Remote to get a MIDI controller to send CCs into Live. Otherwise the mod wheel wouldn't work, it's CC#1.

Reread your Advance manual, you must have something set up incorrectly.

Well that's the problem I'm running into. Nothing is wrong with setup running into MainStage 3 or MIDI Monitor, both programs pick up CC11 (expression) just fine. I have already confirmed looking in the Advance 61 settings that the expression pedal plugged into the expression jack is indeed setup to send CC11; additionally as previously stated MIDI Monitor is seeing incoming expression MIDI data as I move the pedal.

I just got off the phone with one of the guys at Ableton; apparently I have an incorrect notion of how CC11 messages would be interpreted by Live. On MainStage any channel strip would receive expression messages unless you chose to filter them out. I can understand if Live simply doesn't have an automated response to these MIDI messages, but it also has nowhere (that I can find) that you can choose that software instruments will respond to CC11. If anyone can find different info then I will appreciate it, but the only thing I can find in Live's manual deals with the Expression plugin which deals more with reassigning MIDI data from my understanding.

As previously stated, the only current solution I have for using my expression pedal to lower certain instrument's volumes is to turn the Remote function on and map the pedal to a macro; once I do this it shows that pedal is indeed mapped to CC11, but an additional problem I run into is that the sweeping of the volume isn't smooth at all, jumping very choppy between -inf and whatever my max volume is set to (typically 0db).

Kind of left scratching my head after my phone call as to why this wouldn't just work. Additional info: I'm running Ableton 10.1 Standard (not Suite) and using the stock Grand Piano preset for Simpler (NOT Sampler) found under Instruments>Simpler>Piano & Keys>Grand Piano.adg; the tech on the phone didn't make it sound like I would get any different results if I were to be running the Piano in Sampler, but if anyone else has different experience on this it would be appreciated.

[swanny8777]

Your problem is you are trying to MIDI map the expression pedal. Live reads CCs just fine without requiring Remote to be activated, your mod wheel works, right?

The problem is your software instruments, not the keyboard. Some instruments respond to CC#11 by default, some can be configured to do so, others will never respond.

Regarding the mod wheel: Yes, depending on the instrument (and whether or not the wheel is mapped to something as you said); I agree that it seems to be a problem with the software instruments, or if not a problem just a limitation that there is nowhere that I can find to implement expression. From my experience I thought that all midi based instruments listen for expression messages for volume, and apparently I was wrong and only had narrow experience (working mostly in Logic and MainStage); I would just be frustrated if Sampler has this option of configuration that you mentioned but not Simpler. It's a heck of an upgrade price just for a fully functioning sampler if I can say without sounding too cocky.

Regardless, I don't understand why there's all the choppiness when I do MIDI map the expression pedal to a volume macro. It isn't the case in Live with the mod wheel or other rotary controllers, but when I test the expression pedal in MIDI Monitor or MainStage it functions smoothly as expected. Odd.

[doghouse]

It's not odd at all. As I wrote in your other post, MIDI CC reception is 100% dependent on the receiving device. In fact that is true of all MIDI communications.

EDITED:

OK, I sat down and messed around with Sampler, a few other native devices and third party plugins.

1. None of the native Ableton devices respond to CC#11. Some third party plugins did, others did not...as I expected.

2. Sampler's MIDI tab allows mapping MIDI controls to various parameters, including volume...but Expression is not one of the available controls. Foot Control (CC#4) is available and when I set my keyboard to send pedal data as CC#4 this worked perfectly. So if you are willing to edit the Sampler presets and enable CCs to pass through racks, you could use CC#4 (or any other available CC) to control volume.

3. Simpler has no MIDI tab so cannot use the workaround in #2.

So to summarize, Live is not CC#11 friendly, unlike Mainstage and Logic. In Logic, CC#11 is detected by the channel strip, not the instrument in the strip. So it works regardless of the instrument loaded.

Perhaps if you explained your application, someone could suggest a workaround.

[swanny8777]

It's not odd at all.

3. Simpler has no MIDI tab so cannot use the workaround in #2.

So to summarize, Live is not CC#11 friendly, unlike Mainstage and Logic. In Logic, CC#11 is detected by the channel strip, not the instrument in the strip. So it works regardless of the instrument loaded.

Perhaps if you explained your application, someone could suggest a workaround.

Agreed, it's not odd, more of a showing of my inexperience with different programs.

Since I only have Simpler at the moment, I've come to accept that this is just how it is.

My only goal is for our keyboardists to be able to use the expression pedal to smoothly turn down a keys channel (with a piano, lead synth, etc.) while a pad channel continues to play through. My workaround has just been to turn on the remote for my keyboard and midi map the expression pedal to volume. There's still the weirdness that the midi messages make the volume sweeps very choppy (unlike in other programs), but hey it gets the volume of the keys channel to go through -inf and 0db, so at least I've got that much functionality. Thank you for your help!

[TimL]

I know this is an old conversation, but I came across this whilst trying to get my expression peddle to control the volume of Simpler. As previous posts have pointed out, there's no Midi tab for Simpler, so you cannot get it to respond to CC11 directly.

The workaround I used was to drag an audio effect to follow after Simpler, and use the volume control of this to be mapped to CC11. I chose Basic Rock Dual Cab Guitar, turned the Rack Dry/Wet control to 0 (100% Dry so no effects introduced) and MIDI mapped the Rack Volume to respond to CC11.

It worked for me