Thoughts quality of Ableton FX? Workflow question.

[Citizen]

So, I’m looking to move my set up to a new computer - and probably upgrade from Live 9 (Suite) to Live 10 (Suite).

I’m looking to streamline my new set up, FAR less samples, as few VSTs as possible. Just a handful of tools and sound I know well, and use frequently. Limiting choice, more music making.

A big part of this move is the time I wasted trying to use Push to intergrate with my huge sample libraries, and VSTs. I spent WAY too much time trying to organise around Push than actually making music.

My question is this: how do you rate the suite of Ableton FX and instruments? Any favourites, or shortcomings? I know Operator and Analog reasonably well, but in the past I haven’t really invested much time delving deep into the other tools, always preferring to use my VSTs.

Any tools that you would absolutely need beyond the factory content? (There is also a bunch of new FX, instruments and content with Suite 10 - despite it being an expensive upgrade)

Ultimately, I just want the fastest, most intuitive workflow, and my sense is that will come from primarily using Ableton’s own tools with Push - as they will already be mapped and ready to go. Thoughts?

[chapelier fou]

I went for the "almost no VST" route for more than 10 years.
Only exceptions are Kontakt when needed (piano sounds most of the time) and Guitar Rig as I couldn't get satisfying results with Amp + Cabinet provided by Live, but I maybe didn't take enough time with it.

I love the instruments and FX in Live.
Operator and Simpler are my favorites, and Wavetable is a super powerful synth (but a bit CPU hungry). Didn't touch Impulse since 2008, but it has some nice touches.
Collision is underestimated, it marvelous. But I have been fighting with a rare but super annoying bug that would occasionally make it output extremely loud glitches, that totally made me exclude it for any live usage.

[oratowsky]

I think the Ableton sounds and effects are timeless, precise sounds that you can absolutely make great tunes with.

I think having plugins and synths and stuff is just all about different flavors. Sometimes you reach for one thing, sometimes you reach for something else.

[jlgrimes]

So, I’m looking to move my set up to a new computer - and probably upgrade from Live 9 (Suite) to Live 10 (Suite).

I’m looking to streamline my new set up, FAR less samples, as few VSTs as possible. Just a handful of tools and sound I know well, and use frequently. Limiting choice, more music making.

A big part of this move is the time I wasted trying to use Push to intergrate with my huge sample libraries, and VSTs. I spent WAY too much time trying to organise around Push than actually making music.

My question is this: how do you rate the suite of Ableton FX and instruments? Any favourites, or shortcomings? I know Operator and Analog reasonably well, but in the past I haven’t really invested much time delving deep into the other tools, always preferring to use my VSTs.

Any tools that you would absolutely need beyond the factory content? (There is also a bunch of new FX, instruments and content with Suite 10 - despite it being an expensive upgrade)

Ultimately, I just want the fastest, most intuitive workflow, and my sense is that will come from primarily using Ableton’s own tools with Push - as they will already be mapped and ready to go. Thoughts?

Great effects.

The standout ones are the compressors, EQs autofilter, saturator, all the newer stuff made in version 10. Max4live has some hidden gems as well such as pitch drop, convolution, color limiter.


I think its weak areas is Chorus, and its stock reverb.

[[jur]]

Same as Chapelier for me.
Aside from the quality, you also get tight GUI integration (no plugin floating window to open/close all the time), tight Push integration of course and super tight automation and midi control over parameters, almost zero latency added to your live set, there's also M4L devices if you want more, you know every devices inside-out, it's totally future-proof (as far as I can remember that was one of the biggest point when I took the decision to go the native-devices-only route) etc...

[jestermgee]

(no plugin floating window to open/close all the time

I'd say this is probably the BIGGEST limitation of Live FX and the main sole reason I choose VST FX sometimes, not something i'd spin into a "feature", definitely a hinderance.

It's all good if you are a user that just has a single monitor and works in a simple view but there are many users with multi-monitor setups that like to have FX open on a monitor and be able to click through tracks and still monitor levels or adjust FX even when not on that track. For example, adjusting send FX is impossible while you try and play a track with Push. You have to be able to lock down a track if you want to move to a Live effect on another track.

The FX are fine in what they do and I use compressor, EQ, delay all the time and all do what the tin says, but the focus to have them locked into the tiny box does make them limiting/frustrating to use sometimes which is why I have a suite of plugins from Waves and Soundtoys.

[jlgrimes]

(no plugin floating window to open/close all the time

I'd say this is probably the BIGGEST limitation of Live FX and the main sole reason I choose VST FX sometimes, not something i'd spin into a "feature", definitely a hinderance.

It's all good if you are a user that just has a single monitor and works in a simple view but there are many users with multi-monitor setups that like to have FX open on a monitor and be able to click through tracks and still monitor levels or adjust FX even when not on that track. For example, adjusting send FX is impossible while you try and play a track with Push. You have to be able to lock down a track if you want to move to a Live effect on another track.

The FX are fine in what they do and I use compressor, EQ, delay all the time and all do what the tin says, but the focus to have them locked into the tiny box does make them limiting/frustrating to use sometimes which is why I have a suite of plugins from Waves and Soundtoys.

Yeah it depends. Some of the devices GUIs are getting smaller as our screen resolution increases. I think at some point they will need to update GUI but some devices like the EQ and Spectrum can be expanded. I kind of like the device view overall though as you can get right to the parameters without opening windows and sometimes I even use it for the VSTS but certain VSTS like Fabfilter have impressive interfaces that is not possible with live native devices.

[jestermgee]

Yeah it’s not just being able to expand the interface, but to have the effect open when you are on a different track or to monitor several track effects at the same time. Impossible with live fix, no problem with 3rd party fx.

[Citizen]

Thanks everybody - some really great responses, and a lot of food for thought.

Your comments about integration, and not having to worry about updating VSTs/compatibility/things breaking has got me thinking seriously that this will be the direction I move in. I already know I’m probably gonna lose some VSTs due to compatibility issues when I upgrade anyway.

However, the points about the Live FX interfaces not being expandable is totally valid. It would be great if they all expanded like spectrum. That said, in *theory* the interface of Push should be optimised in such a way that looking at the screen is not that necessary.

Yeah, I never really liked the Reverb in Live, either. I might just keep a tiny selection of some of my old fave VSTs. (Actually, Kontakt and Guitar Rig would be amongst them. Kontakt for the sound libraries, and GR for the FX, and the reverbs)

[Citizen]

Same as Chapelier for me.
Aside from the quality, you also get tight GUI integration (no plugin floating window to open/close all the time), tight Push integration of course and super tight automation and midi control over parameters, almost zero latency added to your live set, there's also M4L devices if you want more, you know every devices inside-out, it's totally future-proof (as far as I can remember that was one of the biggest point when I took the decision to go the native-devices-only route) etc...

Yep, this sums up my thinking.

I just want to simplify, integrate, be able to natively tweak through Push (without midi mapping!) , and just know all my tools inside out.

Perhaps I may eventually reintroduce smoe of my favourite plugs, one by one - but by then, maybe I won’t miss them?

[TLW]

The way I look at it is this.

Could I manage using only Live’s fx plugins? Yes.
Would I choose to only use Live’s fx? No.

I have plugins that have characteristics I like and I’m very used to using - for example Waves’ 1176 compressor, Pultec eq emulation (or “Puigtec” as Waves call it and their SSL console emulation. I can dial them in very quickly and easily because I know them very well and have used them for a long time. I’ve other plugins from various companies I use for the same reason - Eventide’s Black Hole and Valhalla’s shimmer reverb are a couple of plugins I use all the time. I also use Soundtoys plugins a lot, especially their filters which I do think are better than Live’s.

So for me it’s a more a matter of choosing the tool I know and/or like for it’s distinctive sound more than Live’s fx being so bad they’re unusable.

[[jur]]

Some very interesting opinions here.
Interestingly it seems like the use of 3rd party plugins is mainly about the ergonomics (floating window, and parameters layouts that give you more instant results) rather than sound quality. Am I right?

[jestermgee]

Some very interesting opinions here.
Interestingly it seems like the use of 3rd party plugins is mainly about the ergonomics (floating window, and parameters layouts that give you more instant results) rather than sound quality. Am I right?

For me, pretty much mostly.

The bread and butter" plugins such as EQ8, Compressor (Glue is fantastic), Delay, Multiband are brilliant little devices, lite on resources and do exactly what is needed with minimal fuss. I actually have EQ8 and compressor load with every new channel and use them to do all the standard shaping of sound. Nothing else really needed.

As mentioned in a few posts above, sometimes you want a different character or just to experiment and that's where 3rd party effects come in. I use FabFilter ProQ3 a lot because it's a great plugin and very handy, but mostly on the master channel and I like toi view it when on any other track and that's where Lives effects just fail.

Then there are the effects (as mentioned) such as Reverb which I find too "digital / artificial" to sound the crisp way I want. I can sometimes get it sounding ok but tend to use Eventide or even Waves reverbs and love reverb effects so have a few I like to play with but again, I often want to adjust the reverb while I am playing or tracking to dial in a sound and it's always on a send which I cannot view when i'm on a track.

This is why Lives devices need to be updated to modern times. When Live was first designed it made sense to have everything neatly in a small ribbon as it was a live performance system and designed for a compact display. Nowdays most people run 2 or 3 monitors and like to have stuff open and spread out and while Lives devices are "clean" looking with the basic graphical design, they are not as intuitive wne you see what appears as a small box with dozens of identical controls and tiny text labels compared to something that has a more intuitive synth layout and graphics that aren't all "eye candy" but a way to instantly see what controls are without the need for labels at all just because of how they are laid out... And no "3 screens" of parameters because the GUI is too small to fit everything.

For the most part I feel the sound quality is not the issue at all.

[jonljacobi]

They all sound fine to me. The only external plugs I use are BBE. And those simply because I'm so used to them. I'm guessing you can accomplish the same thing with internals.

[dubstar123]

Yeah it’s not just being able to expand the interface, but to have the effect open when you are on a different track or to monitor several track effects at the same time. Impossible with live fix, no problem with 3rd party fx.

Completely agree and is something that bothers me as well. When I used Logic I could have the EQ for both Kick and Bass open side by side(for example) and adjust back and forth while the track is playing. Or have a delay for 1 track up and the synth for another, etc. Should definitely have an "undock" feature for the instruments and effects.