Macbook Pro 2019 16 inch fan noise with Ableton

[LQdb.Music]

Their board design etc. was reasonable until mid 2014-retina MBPs, after that: one design flaw after another IMHO, keyboard issues, dying displays, high cpu temp./fan noise, the list goes on and on...iMacs and MacPros are kinda different story. Desktop-CPU, good cooling, external keyboard, at least RAM upgradeability etc.

Their notebooks really suck lately...sorry to say, esp. for the price and service behaviour...

For achieving purposes (coming from Logic Pro) I keep my Mac mini i7 as long as it runs the current macOS. Pretty decent machine...maybe when they switch to ARM CPUs next year they will re-think their shitty board desig (e.g. having a high voltage pin right next to a low voltage pin which goes directly to the CPU, a tiny bit corrosion after a year or two and voila fried MBP on toast )

[Tone Deft]

Their board design etc. was reasonable until mid 2014-retina MBPs, after that: one design flaw after another IMHO, keyboard issues, dying displays, high cpu temp./fan noise, the list goes on and on...iMacs and MacPros are kinda different story. Desktop-CPU, good cooling, external keyboard, at least RAM upgradeability etc.

Their notebooks really suck lately...sorry to say, esp. for the price and service behaviour...

For achieving purposes (coming from Logic Pro) I keep my Mac mini i7 as long as it runs the current macOS. Pretty decent machine...maybe when they switch to ARM CPUs next year they will re-think their shitty board desig (e.g. having a high voltage pin right next to a low voltage pin which goes directly to the CPU, a tiny bit corrosion after a year or two and voila fried MBP on toast )

you probably know this, what got me looking into this is Intel's stock dropping 10% over a weekend about 6 weeks ago. preceded by the AMD/Apple announcement. then Intel fired their top VPs of engineering, bringing in new people. I think those were results from the Gen10 Ice Lake/Cascade Lake/Comet Lake and their new 10nm fab or first test runs of their 10nm++ architecture with Alder Lake.

I appreciate your insight into all this. personally I'm an old hardware engineer and it's well within my means to understand ALL this stuff from the shipping computer to the gate level. this gives me more to look into, thanks. low voltage/high voltage pin location and board corrosion (conformal level coating design error!!!) are all stuff I've designed at the schematic/spec sheet level from NPI to EOL, many times, that's what I do and I love it.

especially with Apple, they do have a certain amount of mystery around their builds. IMO that's largely because their user base has no need to understand what/when/why certain chips are made. generally Apple people just go with 'the higher the number the better' mentality which is a safe way to go. their marketing and fanboyism make it all seem like magic, no clue about the details but that's fine, that's what Apple wants for their customers.

then I check out pcpartpicker.com to look at custom PC builds and it seems like all (?) of their reviews are the builders saying they have low level problems. eeeeek!!!

/morning coffee rant. interesting stuff!

edit - I forgot to add that on a different forum (surprise surprise) they confirmed that Ableton has been using the Apple Transition Kit
developer.apple.com/programs/universal/
and it works with the beta testing. so... potentially that means Live in the palm of your hand. the A12X chips (IIRC) are coming out as a game changer. people keep saying to wait until October when things are about to change, a lot. so they say.

[LQdb.Music]

Their board design etc. was reasonable until mid 2014-retina MBPs, after that: one design flaw after another IMHO, keyboard issues, dying displays, high cpu temp./fan noise, the list goes on and on...iMacs and MacPros are kinda different story. Desktop-CPU, good cooling, external keyboard, at least RAM upgradeability etc.

Their notebooks really suck lately...sorry to say, esp. for the price and service behaviour...

For achieving purposes (coming from Logic Pro) I keep my Mac mini i7 as long as it runs the current macOS. Pretty decent machine...maybe when they switch to ARM CPUs next year they will re-think their shitty board desig (e.g. having a high voltage pin right next to a low voltage pin which goes directly to the CPU, a tiny bit corrosion after a year or two and voila fried MBP on toast )

you probably know this, what got me looking into this is Intel's stock dropping 10% over a weekend about 6 weeks ago. preceded by the AMD/Apple announcement. then Intel fired their top VPs of engineering, bringing in new people. I think those were results from the Gen10 Ice Lake/Cascade Lake/Comet Lake and their new 10nm fab or first test runs of their 10nm++ architecture with Alder Lake.

I appreciate your insight into all this. personally I'm an old hardware engineer and it's well within my means to understand ALL this stuff from the shipping computer to the gate level. this gives me more to look into, thanks. low voltage/high voltage pin location and board corrosion (conformal level coating design error!!!) are all stuff I've designed at the schematic/spec sheet level from NPI to EOL, many times, that's what I do and I love it.

especially with Apple, they do have a certain amount of mystery around their builds. IMO that's largely because their user base has no need to understand what/when/why certain chips are made. generally Apple people just go with 'the higher the number the better' mentality which is a safe way to go. their marketing and fanboyism make it all seem like magic, no clue about the details but that's fine, that's what Apple wants for their customers.

then I check out pcpartpicker.com to look at custom PC builds and it seems like all (?) of their reviews are the builders saying they have low level problems. eeeeek!!!

/morning coffee rant. interesting stuff!

edit - I forgot to add that on a different forum (surprise surprise) they confirmed that Ableton has been using the Apple Transition Kit
developer.apple.com/programs/universal/
and it works with the beta testing. so... potentially that means Live in the palm of your hand. the A12X chips (IIRC) are coming out as a game changer. people keep saying to wait until October when things are about to change, a lot. so they say.

Nice, really appreciate your feedback. You are abs. right, this fanboy-ism like behaviour can be really annoying and strengthen Apples cringe customer behaviour. These people hardly "use" their MBP besides email, web with safari and post in forums something like "you just want to destroy apple, my unit is super quiet blabla", well... be happy - than you got a unit that works, hopefully for the next 12 months

I think Apple has become a victim of their locked-in-ecosystem (T2 security chip etc.), when you sell a (closed) system like a modern MBP, where you as a customer cannot even alter the fan curve or lower the CPU voltage because of the "System protection" mechanism, EVERY single failure may it caused by soft- or hardware leads directly to a warranty case IMHO.
Like with your car, if it's constantly overheating, bring it back to the dealer shop, they have to fix it.
Imagine they would tell you:"nah, all these models have overheating issues, you got the live with it" or "Hmm all diagnosis LEDs show no failure when I started the car - you are good to go, bye"

Back in the days I build all PC by myself and configured them by hand, so I know exactly what nuts and bolts I would have to turn in my MBP to make this unit work cool and quiet, but Apple won't let me sooo please vendor fix it (they tried 3 times) or take it back. Dead simple.

Hope the next gen. Apple CPUs/GPU/SoC works better as a whole system, tuned and optimised for the new macOS, I really do.
But I doubt their board design though will become any better, unfortunately

PS: as a hardware engineer you def. will have fun watching https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/featured
He really goes deep into schematics and shows Apples design flaws with his microscope

[Tone Deft]

PS: as a hardware engineer you def. will have fun watching https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/featured
He really goes deep into schematics and shows Apples design flaws with his microscope

watched Right To Repair video. I freaking love this guy!!!

"law is downstream from culture" - wow, beautifully stated.

inspiring! I gotta watch more of this guy to jump on his mojo, I could totally be effective in this movement and make some play money. that would be hilarious if I devoted my life to learning macs just so I can fleece (sarcasm) their customers.

this guy shed light from new angles for me. the politicians need to get involved but it's such a low priority. the start of that video made my heart sink, the end picked me back up, this guy is AWESOME!!! he's a teacher, influencer and doing the work that has to be done outside of corporations.

rant below, I'm sounding apologetic about teams moving too fast, taking on more and more design efforts with lower labor costs. this guy put a whole new spin on it, it'd be rude to just call it a conspiracy, it's far more than that. it's a rut.

releasing schematics. in my experience that stopped when we started putting very expensive IP into our hardware like security features or decoded IP from third parties with LOADS of lawyers and new standards. anything you put on a schematic that ends up in court, the lawyers have rights to investigate anything that's referenced on the schematic, including trade secrets. n00bs don't know this, so much to learn.

from my experience it's software engineers that are ruining hardware. software guys in middle management turn into cocky a-holes with hubris about hardware design. the later I got into my career schematic design review meetings added the caveat to ignore basic errors and focus on the architecture for lean and quick iterative designs using open wallets. I still grilled the fuck out the designer for being lazy and naive. they didn't like me but I'm for quality. heh, the rest of that EE team, my friends, quit after their software lead 'secret projects' that never launched but fucked up the entire engineering culture wasting untold millions. everyone was afraid to convey doubt to the big dick swinging VP, the programs failed and the VP left under unknown circumstances. ha ha ha he actually went to Apple's VR skunkworks engineering team!! to work out on an island to innovate, years later he's still ruminating. Pink Floyd's Animals still resonates today, it's all true.

that's OK because all you have to do is use a contract manufacturer (CM, JDM, ODM etc) that will commit to producing x number of units per build. getting fallout yield from these guys is impossible, it's basically a trade secret. it's up to the CM to use and abuse their workers to crank out products even if the documentation is crap and parts have to be forced together or they find bugs they wouldn't dream of reporting them, just ship it. a classically trained engineer actually understands thing like ESR, impedance matching, edge speeds, the detailed analog stuff that well, fuck it, is optional these days. it kills me. wanna call out a dipshit about electronics (I do this during interviews to see if their EE team is worth a shit)?? ask them what's wrong with a 50 ohm resistor on a schematic. answer - there's no such thing, look up 'e96 values' 50 ohm resistors cost MORE than a 49.9 value. it's an indication that the design was never actually studied. some jagoff just copied and pasted an Orcad reference schematic into a new design without studying it, it's a shortcut, lazy, stupid. that's Apple's approach, their hardware teams are limited by the choice of chips chosen by committee (ie coked out VP software bros who don't bother to look at documentation or support levels). they come back to the office with a huge announcement of investment of new tools and the engineering teams go "quietly go fuuuuuck..." and scrambles the web looking for a clue to save face. if anyone ever uses the word simple in engineering, run like hell, get that person out of your professional life. Apple, it's simple, it just works. I still love them for trying, I'm just not that dumb when it comes to computers.

now this guy underlines all that, from a completely different angle. money lowers the bar on quality and there's money to be made from bad products. damnit that stung to hear him describe. I've written many field upgrade guides. that doesn't happen anymore. frog in boiling water...




edit -
I was told by Ableton HQ that if I did anymore Apple bashing or baiting I'll be banned, I'm already on 'warning level 1'. rules are objective to us, moderation is subjective, it's their forum. huh, I've never truly felt the affect of the loss of Freedom Of Speech before. it puts you on eggshells with the thought police.

if I disappear, keep up the fight, we'll meet later down the road. I already hit submit and screwed up. I enjoyed this exchange, thanks!

[oratowsky]

I feel like I'm missing something with this thread but please enlighten me because the thermal performance of the 16" macbook pro is something I follow very closely.
These computers run screaming hot and yes indeed, the fans have to work very hard.

That was not exactly the point and dust in a 3 weeks old machine should not be the problem.
The overall temp. in this enclosure (with high temp and GPUs. CPU, Thunderbolt-Port, AC-converter etc.) is high without really doing much.
Just load simple start-up template in Ableton and wait for the fans to spin up to max. No playback, no fancy oversampling synth etc.

dGPU draw 20-25 watts w/o even starting playback etc., CPU easy up to 70-80C.
It is NOT the problem of working hard with this machine and the CPU getting a bit hotter than normal. High base temp., simples task pushes the machine cooling fans "over the edge" without high CPU usage. Seems that AMD drivers are crap and "unlucky" Std.-METAL API-Calls do the rest.

And yes, this machine throttles below base clock (2.3, throttles down to 1.9 measured with Intel Power Gadget).

well, if the processor is actually getting throttled, that's clearly a problem, and what if you clean it? or ask Apple to re put thermal paste and clean it? (They'll do it. Not that you should have to ask, but I'm just saying.)

Iin general, I've found that if you call applecare and speak to a "senior applecare advisor" that is the best path to actually getting a real repair or replacement computer in dealing with Apple.

If you make a paper trail of your heating issues, you could be eligible for a replacement when the Apple Silicon computers are out and, God willing, these heating issues are addressed.

[LQdb.Music]

well, if the processor is actually getting throttled, that's clearly a problem, and what if you clean it? or ask Apple to re put thermal paste and clean it? (They'll do it. Not that you should have to ask, but I'm just saying.)

Iin general, I've found that if you call applecare and speak to a "senior applecare advisor" that is the best path to actually getting a real repair or replacement computer in dealing with Apple.

If you make a paper trail of your heating issues, you could be eligible for a replacement when the Apple Silicon computers are out and, God willing, these heating issues are addressed.

Clean it ? After 2 Weeks of use ? I had 3 exchange devices, ALL with the same temp. behaviour ! Brand new, out of the box ! No "cleaning" needed.

I called the Apple Support several times (4-6 times), had a "personal" 2nd Level guy, which I could email my data, Apple recorded 2x my temp.-telematics, writing down timestamps for the engineers in Cupertino. No feedback from Apple or any offer to swap the devices. Telematic "shows no unusual data".

But all good now, with the help of my attorney I forced the retailer to refund me. So I could close the Apple MBP chapter, once and for all.

[Machinesworking]

I'm sure this has been pointed out before in this thread even, but all of this is why Apple are switching to their own Arm based chips. They refuse to build a larger case for the 8 core chips, it's essentially the same as the 2012 4 core I'm typing this on, so they have more issues with heat.
Comparing the case of the 6-8 core ZenBook Duo with the same chips in it and you see what I'm on about. Add to this that Intel has it's own thermal issues with not being able to get to 10nm chips out in time and 7nm aren't happening until 2022, compared to AMD and Apple silicon, AMD already released a 7nm chip and Apple certainly will as well.

I don't know if this is going to mean Apple Silicon is going to solve all these types of issues, but it's a step in the right direction. I feel like I dodged a bullet with this latest round of MacBook Pros though, glad to wait it out longer and see what AMD and Apple put out.

[oratowsky]

Clean it ? After 2 Weeks of use ? I had 3 exchange devices, ALL with the same temp. behaviour ! Brand new, out of the box ! No "cleaning" needed.

I called the Apple Support several times (4-6 times), had a "personal" 2nd Level guy, which I could email my data, Apple recorded 2x my temp.-telematics, writing down timestamps for the engineers in Cupertino. No feedback from Apple or any offer to swap the devices. Telematic "shows no unusual data".

But all good now, with the help of my attorney I forced the retailer to refund me. So I could close the Apple MBP chapter, once and for all.

each of those computers were literally being throttled and the performance was bad?

I just say clean it bc that's what has allowed my computer to not be throttled. I literally have to clean it every 2 weeks. It's crazy i know, but that's how tight the thermal envelope is.

[LQdb.Music]

Clean it ? After 2 Weeks of use ? I had 3 exchange devices, ALL with the same temp. behaviour ! Brand new, out of the box ! No "cleaning" needed.

I called the Apple Support several times (4-6 times), had a "personal" 2nd Level guy, which I could email my data, Apple recorded 2x my temp.-telematics, writing down timestamps for the engineers in Cupertino. No feedback from Apple or any offer to swap the devices. Telematic "shows no unusual data".

But all good now, with the help of my attorney I forced the retailer to refund me. So I could close the Apple MBP chapter, once and for all.

each of those computers were literally being throttled and the performance was bad?

I just say clean it bc that's what has allowed my computer to not be throttled. I literally have to clean it every 2 weeks. It's crazy i know, but that's how tight the thermal envelope is.

Yep all 3 were bad, according the to retailer all MBP 16" with Intel i9 behave the same way.
I do void the factory warranty if I open this puppy for cleaning every 2 weeks and disassemble it, right ?

[oratowsky]

Yep all 3 were bad, according the to retailer all MBP 16" with Intel i9 behave the same way.
I do void the factory warranty if I open this puppy for cleaning every 2 weeks and disassemble it, right ?

no, you do not void the warranty by opening the computer and cleaning it.

was the room warm?

not questioning your experience, just for my interest.

[LQdb.Music]

Yep all 3 were bad, according the to retailer all MBP 16" with Intel i9 behave the same way.
I do void the factory warranty if I open this puppy for cleaning every 2 weeks and disassemble it, right ?

no, you do not void the warranty by opening the computer and cleaning it.
was the room warm?
not questioning your experience, just for my interest.

normal 22-23C, hard surface, flat

[Kobalt]

Hi there
Same problem here (MBP 16 - 2,3Ghz i9 - 32Go Ram / OSX 10.15.7 / external monitor and RME fireface UCX plugged via Calldigit TS3+).
I am still on the waiting list for Live11 beta and so I was not able to test if Live 11 beta brings any progress regarding that problem. What is your experience with Live 11 beta?

[frabo]

Hi there
Same problem here (MBP 16 - 2,3Ghz i9 - 32Go Ram / OSX 10.15.7 / external monitor and RME fireface UCX plugged via Calldigit TS3+).
I am still on the waiting list for Live11 beta and so I was not able to test if Live 11 beta brings any progress regarding that problem. What is your experience with Live 11 beta?

Hi, I don't have experience with 11, but I have hope, it will be better...

About the fan noise, I turned off the turboboost with the free version of "turbo boost switcher" --> the Macbook pro 16" is much more quiet without turbo boost - like it should be !

Btw, do have also Audio-drop outs or crackles ?
This is still the mainproblem for me. It is only with my 4k display ! The Support told me, that has something to do with the OS X metal engine....
Hope the best for 11, and hope I can check out the beta soon...

[Kobalt]

Problem solved with Turbo Boost Switcher Pro (I guess the free version is enough but I happily paid the developper). Still more than enough horsepower available to handle my needs.
TB off does not seem to generate more audio drop outs than TB on from I notice
I am Still on the waiting list for 11 beta...

[Sho-B]

Dear Ableton Team,

I do hope you fix the Turbo Boost issues on the i7 and i9 16 inch Macbooks. Using a turbo boost switcher should not be the option specially when Logic projects do not get the fans running on full speed. This is something that urgently needs to be fixed in Live 11 to ensure good performance for mac users.

We all would be grateful if you could share this with your development team.

Thanks
Sho-B