Latency issues with Roland Boutique devices

[musicman_uk]

Hi,

I recently purchased 3 boutique devices, sh-01a, tr-08 and tr-09, probably going to get the tb-03 and jp-08 if I can find one.

Via usb-audio I am getting horrendous inconsistent latency with each device. I've already had a play around with the various latency options in Ableton preferences but I think it's more to do with usb-audio and the devices. I've been using my Mac's internal soundcard but I do have a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 which I've not tried since added the boutique devices, since I think it's more than just a decent audio interface that's going on. So, I am looking at an alternate set up to get it working nicely with Ableton and wondering what people on here would advise/recommend. I am aware that I won't be able to completely get rid of the latency no matter what solution is used.

I do have a 7 port USB-3 hub connected to my Mac which I believe could also be a contributory factor.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Upgrade audio interface from Scarlett 2i4 to something like a 18i8 or 18i20
2. Purchase Motu Midi Express 128 and connect Boutique devices via Midi
3. Audio outs from boutique devices into the Scarlett. Scarlett connected via USB to Ableton so I can hear the devices in Ableton. With this, will I be able to get each device onto a separate audio track in Ableton also?

I do have a £30 Atolla USB 3.0 7 port usb connected to my Mac which may or may not be a contributory factor too

I look forward to your suggestions

[doghouse]

Did you install the Roland USB drivers?

Try connecting one synth directly rather than using the hub. If that works, time to consider getting a different/better hub.

[TLW]

Running audio interfaces off a USB hub is usually problematic. MIDI is usually OK though, so it the hub is just used for MIDI then that shouldn’t be a problem.

If you use an audio interface with enough inputs then connecting the synth’s audio outputs to it will work. If you don’t have enough inputs on the interface you can always connect and record the synths one or two at a time, though obviously it’s better if you can at least connect enough to hear how they are sounding against each other.

A good interface (using the manufacturer’s drivers) should give you low latency, and yes you will be able to record each synth/input to a seperate track.

I use an RME UFX which gives me under 5 milliseconds “round trip latency” (time taken for sound to enter interface, go through the Mac and back out to the monitors) while recording 12 mono tracks without problems. There’s a little latency on top of that because synths need a few milliseconds to react to MIDI, exactly how long varies from synth to synth. Which means either using track delay or the external instrument plugin to compensate for each of them or just nudging the audio a little to put it where it should be.

[musicman_uk]

Running audio interfaces off a USB hub is usually problematic. MIDI is usually OK though, so it the hub is just used for MIDI then that shouldn’t be a problem.

If you use an audio interface with enough inputs then connecting the synth’s audio outputs to it will work. If you don’t have enough inputs on the interface you can always connect and record the synths one or two at a time, though obviously it’s better if you can at least connect enough to hear how they are sounding against each other.

A good interface (using the manufacturer’s drivers) should give you low latency, and yes you will be able to record each synth/input to a seperate track.

I use an RME UFX which gives me under 5 milliseconds “round trip latency” (time taken for sound to enter interface, go through the Mac and back out to the monitors) while recording 12 mono tracks without problems. There’s a little latency on top of that because synths need a few milliseconds to react to MIDI, exactly how long varies from synth to synth. Which means either using track delay or the external instrument plugin to compensate for each of them or just nudging the audio a little to put it where it should be.

Weird things happen when connecting the sh-01a via usb-audio. Initially, there might be little latency and everything could be fine for 5 mins, 10 mins, 30 mins or whatever, it's very inconsistent. I will have recorded the sh-01a into Ableton with a sequence that seems well sync'd with the drum parts in Ableton drum rack that I've got running. Then at any given time, in Ableton say I might be loading up a VST or I've been messing around with the sliders on the sh-01a then the audio gets glitchy and the sh-01a goes noticeably and horribly out of sync and I am talking upwards of 100ms. If I then close down Ableton or turn off the sh-01a , turn sh-01a back on then open up Ableton, load the project and it's back to normal with a very tight sync, only for x minutes later for it to happen again. I have tried the sh-01a directly connected via usb to the Mac (so no hubs) and I get the same issue. Is this symptomatic of running these external audio devices into Ableton over usb-audio rather than as normal audio outputs from the device into an external good quality audio interface connected to Ableton?

[keichi]

I know this is a year old thread but do you have an update?

I'm running a very similar setup, TR-09, SH-01A & TB-03 with a view of getting a couple more items. I've noticed the latency issue and doesn't matter if its one device or all three the latency is about the same.
I can try an audio input device but that will limit the TR-09 to a stereo input instead of the 4 stereo channels it gives via USB. Is this an inherent issue we're going to have with these devices?

[TLW]

I don't have an answer from personal experience but I have seen a lot of on-line discussion about clocking and sync issues with the Boutiques. It's one reason I didn't get a TR-8 when my elderly Machinedrum started acting up.

One suggestion that I've seen claimed work is to use a MIDI clock other than the DAW, one that is running all the time, so the Roland is receiving clock all the time, not just when the DAW transport is active. The idea seems to be that it needs to be kept fed a steady clock all the time or it loses sync or wanders around

[Mintz Jr.]

My TB-03 was also horribly out of sync, but I fixed it by configuring a negative clock sync in Ableton.
In the Link MIDI settings in Ableton, under MIDI ports, I set Clock sync delay to -73.0 ms to get it on time.

EDIT: I posted that a little too soon, it drifts away after some time and needs to be adjusted

[B3nn3tt]

Im battling this with my new TB-03. I've downloaded the drivers. With Live triggering the synth on its own mixer channel it worked perfectly, it was when I tried routing it through Live I started having problems. It won't sync for ages no matter what settings I change, then suddenly it lines up for no reason can fathom. It seemed to work better today with the TB-03 plugged directly into one of the laptop USB ports but thats not a usable solution as there are only 2. Also had an instant success slowing the buffer size down to 32 samples, that nailed it timing wise but getting occasional distortion. Does anyone have a foolproof answer?

[chimp_spanner]

Yeah unfortunately the Boutiques just have a lot of built in latency. Pretty crazy tbh. I mean the whole point of me getting hardware was to have a more 'instant' feel, with no hit on the CPU. But once I started having to mess around with offsets and negative track delays and battling with just playing/jamming live and in time I thought...nah. Nothing worked. Direct to computer or on hubs, made no difference. Sold them on.

I still have all my Volcas. Those are great! Basic, but almost all analogue so zero latency.

[Mark Williams]

I still have all my Volcas. Those are great! Basic, but almost all analogue so zero latency.

A synth wether its digital or analog has nothing to do with latency, and there is no such thing as zero latency, you can get it low, but not zero. I use direct monitoring on all my external synth gear so cannot hear any latency at all, (and as an ex semi-pro drummer I can feel any latency).

Some good useful videos on how to setup, monitor and deal with latency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkQkzBB6Szc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT5mD2Zd7F8&t=14s

[chimp_spanner]

I still have all my Volcas. Those are great! Basic, but almost all analogue so zero latency.

A synth wether its digital or analog has nothing to do with latency, and there is no such thing as zero latency, you can get it low, but not zero. I use direct monitoring on all my external synth gear so cannot hear any latency at all, (and as an ex semi-pro drummer I can feel any latency).

Some good useful videos on how to setup, monitor and deal with latency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkQkzBB6Szc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT5mD2Zd7F8&t=14s

Well I mean yeah I guess everything has some inherent latency. Cosmic speed limit and all Also I suppose how they implement MIDI might be a factor. Had an old SC880 back in the day and that thing lagged like crazy!! But yeah I suppose the Boutiques essentially being plug-outs are naturally gonna have more because they're just code in a box. Maybe a faster/better processor would've fixed it but they were already pretty expensive for what they were. It was kinda sucky though cos when they hit the scene *no* reviewer mentioned it. And when users started noticing it, they were told they were wrong, their setups were wrong, etc. etc.

Wasn't until someone actually reached out to Roland that they were like "yeah this is just the way it's designed and there are no plans to fix it". Kind of a bummer cos I did enjoy them, and they were very pretty to look at! I had the JU, JX and JP. Will deffo check out those videos though in case the hardware bug ever bites me again!

[B3nn3tt]

I'm new to this so apologies if this is a daft suggestion but since reducing the buffer size down from 512 samples to 32 makes it sync, does this mean its an issue with my laptop not being able to handle it?

Its a 13" MacBook, 2.4ghz dual core with 8GB of Ram. I feel like should be enough but maybe im wrong?

[Mark Williams]

Well I mean yeah I guess everything has some inherent latency. Cosmic speed limit and all Also I suppose how they implement MIDI might be a factor. Had an old SC880 back in the day and that thing lagged like crazy!! But yeah I suppose the Boutiques essentially being plug-outs are naturally gonna have more because they're just code in a box. Maybe a faster/better processor would've fixed it but they were already pretty expensive for what they were. It was kinda sucky though cos when they hit the scene *no* reviewer mentioned it. And when users started noticing it, they were told they were wrong, their setups were wrong, etc. etc.

Wasn't until someone actually reached out to Roland that they were like "yeah this is just the way it's designed and there are no plans to fix it". Kind of a bummer cos I did enjoy them, and they were very pretty to look at! I had the JU, JX and JP. Will deffo check out those videos though in case the hardware bug ever bites me again!

I have a Deepmind12D, Hydrasynth desktop, Microfreak, BassStation2 and Cobalt8m, & using Direct Monitoring I dont get the latency, I add any FX later after I have recorded the Audio.