problem : conception of orange dot in 5.02

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:26 am

the conception of the orange dot is still wrong, specifically that it is trying to be both absolute and relative.

here's a situation that expains why:

* I have a long peice of audio in a clip, with the start marker at bar number 12

* I have global quantize at 16ths

* I play the clip

* If I click nudge forward 16 times "revert" greys out indicating my start point is now back where I started (at bar 12)

but, the song is now a bar ahead of where it would be without any nudging, yet the 'revert' status is indicating 'no change' (IE greyed out)

So is the nudge absolute or is it relative? It cant be both!

It offsets the song audio by a whole bar If I press nudge 16 times, or 2 bars if I press 32 times so it would seem absolute. Yet there is no visual indication of this and when I re-start the song it will re-start from bar number 12, not bar number 13 where I would expect. That is a discrepancy, either audio position shoudl reflect the dot or the dot should reflect the audio .. but to have them both doing different things is weird!

IMHO the orange dot should display in the position where the start position marker would go to if 'keep' was pressed, it should keep moving through the track until it reaches the end.

It should definitely not loop keep looping back on itself to display bar 12 when I have actually leapt ahead 3 bars into the song and that is what is playing. Your idea of a 'theoretical' space that the orange dot lives in is just plain counter-intuitive ... please make it be absolute! not abso-lative

this all seems like a serious conceptual error to me. Particularly as this system really doesn't cater for those of us who have riffs longer than a bar!

dmc · Post by **dmc** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:39 pm

i totally see what you're saying but i actually find this useful, because i mostly use nudge to correct beat alignment rather than phrase alignment. the way i see things there are two parameters that control this behavior, but only one is accessible through controls.

the other one is like a phrase length or "modulo" amount. if it were expressed in beats, the current implementation is 4 beats. what you're saying is that you'd like to be able to set it for the song length. i could see some value in being able to set it to a phrase length of 4 bars or something, to be used to line up phrases, too.

but that might be too complcated to put in the gui. i think the thinking is that for doing that kind of thing, you could move the start position itself. (though i have no idea what your specific application is, so that might not work like you want).

3phase · Post by **3phase** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:40 am

dmc wrote:i totally see what you're saying but i actually find this useful, because i mostly use nudge to correct beat alignment rather than phrase alignment.

Wright..but why limiting nudge to beat allingnment?
In its first incarnation it was not working that way.

The whole thing is a problem from the beginning and you see the feature changing arround in its conception..Its great that the startmarker is online again... And now its not necessary anymore to have the nudge foolprooved.
I think we are witnesses of the conceptional fight for the nudge feature.

First the startmarker was gone and there was just nudging..related to special global settings...not many Live users liked that...
The ones that tryed to get used to it was irritated by the orrange dot.
next step
The range of the nudging was limited to get the orange dot a more clear and understandable meaning..Let it be better for beatmatching as you say.. but it also made the appearnce of the orange dot more understandabele..
And than the startmarker returned...The evil bug was eliminated
With the well behaving orange dot..the best from the 2 worlds?
Its defenetly much better than before... Getting rid of a realtime startmarker was not an improovement...
Its now the question what the orange dot can do...
And for me it seems to be a bit overeasy.
I am anyway wondering that Live gets a one bar centration.
And the actual behaviour of the dot is that it works perfect within 1Bar...
Everything above that gets prohibited.
You see this also in the parameter range of the beatrepeat.. It just can repeat one bar..
However
Aslong the start marker is back i dont mind so much..

A trigger on nudge function could be fun. Especially in a oneshot mode on a short segment.
And keys for different nudge steps..a 1 bar button..an a 16th button..
other keys for the loop length..

I wouldnt be surprised if we havent seen the last step of the nudge functions evolution yet.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:14 pm

yes, it is quite obviously a feature built on sand.

I can appreciate that DMC likes to use it as a beat-correct as opposed to on phrases, that's fine. But one of my issues is - why does the audio move in phrases (ie keep advancing though the song) and the dot move 'relative' (within a bar). That is weird.

IE: keep pressing nudge forward on 16ths while playing and the song will advance and keep advancing, but the dot will loop round and claim that nothing has happened if you land back on the start marker. If I were to use this to align my tracks then try and play the clip again I would find that I am 32 bars out!

If I press >> 16 x 32 times , then the audio is now 32 bars in the future, but the orange dot says that nothing has changed it is the dot that is used for start markering, yet we hear audio syncing 32 bars differently !

That is not a problem with my use of it, it seems a problem with their conception.

If they really want the orange dot to loop around within a bar .. then the audio offset should do the same, otherwise - what you are hearing is different from what you will hear the next time you play the clip.

astar · Post by **astar** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:18 pm

I think the idea of the orange dot is to think of it as a relative OFFSET in a 1 bar area. It's not really designed to physically nudge the start marker long distances only to offset the clip with relation to the 1st beat of every bar. Makes sense to me, but I see what you mean... unfortunately there seems to be no perfect solution for the orange dot. It will always be a little confusing no matter how you play it. For now, I like its current implementation in 5.0.2... but to each their own opinions

cheers

dmc · Post by **dmc** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:55 pm

has anyone got the orange dot behaving properly with "scrub control", ie.e assigning a midi controller to the little box between the nudge buttons?

or is it just my orange dot that'a all confused?

jimmynitcher · Post by **jimmynitcher** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:22 pm

i think we are witnesses of the conceptional fight for the nudge feature

Rock n roll!

J

jimmynitcher · Post by **jimmynitcher** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:30 am

2 bar loop, Global quantize on 16ths - start nudging, it gets to 1.3 and jumps to 2.3.3.

Has there ever been an explanation for this ?

if so I missed/can't find it

thankyou

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:59 pm

nudge nudge wink wink say no more nudge nudge

jimmynitcher · Post by **jimmynitcher** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:17 pm

oh how helpful thanks very much

problem : conception of orange dot in 5.02

problem : conception of orange dot in 5.02

Orange dot still jumps in 2 bar loops in Live 6