Program Change Problem // First Note Weird/Off

[NeonBlackCat]

Hej folks

I have a weird problem with my Novation Peak, as well as Arturia MicroFreak and sending Program Change messages to it via Ableton Live
(yes, everything from the audio interface to MacOS is updated and on the latest patches & firmware updates that are available and I have tried turning it off and on again :)

The first note in a midi-clip in Ableton Live is always silent or weird (an arpeggio on the MF) IF this clip also sends a Program Change message. Weirdly, if the clip is on loop, this first note will get played fine! (logic wise I'd think a new PC is generated and thus again, the note would be cut off). Delaying the first note only by a few milliseconds solves this and the note also gets played just as fine.

Though of course this is very impractical if recorded live with quantisation or generally always going in and delaying your first note manually and if I play a clip without PC messages, the first note is always played, no matter what.

I tried different settings: setting track delay or hardware delay to positive or negative values and also tried if setting the Peak to "only RECEIVE program change" (and not send it) would solve it, nothing. Same on the MicroFreak so I suppose this is on Ableton here

Anyone else have had similar problems, maybe with other synths and knows how to circumvent this or if this is a bug or feature in Ableton?




cheers,
Cat

[[jur]]

That's no really surprising as indeed the PC needs to be sent first and apparently Live isn't prioritizing it "under-the-hood" when your 1st note is right at the start of the clip.
Imo that's worth a report to Support

[NeonBlackCat]

Yup, I also contacted support over this but since they state they’re overrun atm, this might take a while

So far with talks with other ppl you seem to be on the right track: Ableton or midi in Ableton has a problem with those PC events, as ofc polyphony has multiple midi events at the very same millisecond — so that shouldn’t be the problem

Clip 1 has a Patch on an external synth playing and clip 2 needs to change the patch, but ofc also play the first note right on time with the start of the clip. Only solution so far I found reliably working was to delay the beginning of the first note of a clip by just a fraction manually. Which is an odd thing to to tbh!
No PC-to-CC M4L device or so did help either. Having changes set as clip automation envelopes.

This is not so much an issue for recording a song, as you could easily set automated PC events in arrangement view, rather when playing live and a drum machine needs to switch patterns automatically via session view clips — here it would be death of your play if the drum machine couldn’t change patches right on time within a song!

But since this is Live 11 and I am certainly not the first person who wants to play live with Live there’s gotta be a solution here

[NeonBlackCat]

Update:

So far I still can't pin-point it down so it would be nice if someone else could replicate this as well or already has had the same problems and how to avoid them.

At least for my Elektron machine I have found a great solution:

This M4L tool acts as a buffer/cue to prime the machine early, since with changing drum-patterns rapidly and on point is crucial for a performance:



https://www.elektronauts.com/t/elektron ... ode/129895

However no luck on my other synths but it seems it's pattern depended and when they are triggered (for instance one pattern on the Peak always stalls when triggered from another bank, but doesn't when triggered from a lower number of the same bank, but also stalls when triggered from an adjacent patch from the same bank — it's weird!)

cheers,
Cat

[NeonBlackCat]

Update No.2

after an extensive search, tests with DIN-midi vs USB-midi and even Logic Pro and two interfaces...
I programmed a sequence into my Elektron box and in there I put two PCs in: one at the end, one in the middle.

And the same thing happened why this nice person over at Elektronauts programmed this M4L device:
the first notes were scrambled at the pattern changes

This is what they had so say about it what Ableton now does with clips and scenes:

The whole thing depends on Pattern Clips seeing that the clips are “armed” to play. When they added the new follow actions for scenes, they stopped arming all of the clips as well.

So workaround atm is either manually delaying the first note just a fraction (tho it's not very practical really) OR to have a M4L device that does PC-to-CC and draw an envelope in the clips, so right before the end of it it sends the PC. This however is VERY impractical to loops!

So whenever Ableton support gets back to me, at least I can urge them to think about this for a future update. So clips can be "primed/armed" — what you are doing on a Push anyways to select the next clip — and send the PC a bit earlier!

[lebasti]

Sorry, but I have to ressurect this thread - are there any news on this topic?
I am suffering from the same problems I think. Happily, in the last beta, Ableton managed to enable VST3-Program Change, which works pretty well with Serum 2. But yes, the first notes are not stable when using this approach, which is a shame for Live as a Live-Tool :-O

[[jur]]

Sorry, but I have to ressurect this thread - are there any news on this topic?
I am suffering from the same problems I think. Happily, in the last beta, Ableton managed to enable VST3-Program Change, which works pretty well with Serum 2. But yes, the first notes are not stable when using this approach, which is a shame for Live as a Live-Tool :-O

Did you report this to Centercode since you're taking part in the beta program?

[lebasti]

No, not yet. I was just trying to browse through the "Suggestions" to see if their is something already written down, but could find anything there. Yes, I will file a bug/suggestion (which one fits better?)

[chapelier fou]

https://maxforlive.com/library/device/9 ... am-changer