BUG: Push 3 Timing issues. ( even with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock)

[dest4b]

Hi,

i tested arround with the Studio integration of the new Push3.

For clock i use a ERM Multiclock in my Studio to provide a stable clock to my other Sequencers or Drummachines.

If i use Push ( CV Out and Audio ) with a 24PPQ impulse.. for example with VC clock generator. I have to set my ERM outputs to 13.8ms negative Latency to get it into sync in my ears.
So in this moment Push plays a Beat and i sync ma Drumboxes to Push. WIth -14ms it is in sync. At least on my Mixer
There is no big diference if i use VC Out or Audio Out 3 ( Headphone )
But the thing is if i record an external Drumsynth tha Audio is totally out of sync on Push.

I use the ERM also with my BIG DAW and Ableton and the AKAI Force, Both with Audio and 24PPQ to the ERM Multoclock.
In both situations i have a Latency adjusted to round about +1 to +1.8ms..
So Positicve 1.4ms for example. On Push .. NEGATIVE 14.ms
!? Is there something missing regarding Latency compensation on Push3 ?

chbeers

[dest4b]

short update .. seems that it is a officeial Bug.
But i dont get an Answer from Support.

If some one else have Timing Problems with external Gear and or External Instrument Plugin ..
take a look here .. ( german video )

https://youtu.be/Z3BYIgmSl5Y from 51:30 to 60 mins they are talking about it.

[knarrrz]

Well, in the video they're talking about MIDI Clock issues and that there's no possibility on Push to adjust an offset for it, in order to get other gear perfectly in sync. It's maybe not a bug, but definitely a missing feature. Like any other audio interface, Push's built-in interface causes a latency, this is normal due to technical reasons. To get around this, you have to offset the MIDI Clock in order to compensate that latency. It's possible in the Ableton Live software, but not on Push Standalone yet.

Your case is kinda same, but a bit different, because you're sending an analog signal here, not a MIDI Clock. You're able to compensate the output latency on the ERM Multiclock, as you already do with the -14 ms, so this is the right way to go. But the latency that you hear, when you playback a recorded drum beat, derives from the input latency during the recording process. At least, that's what I presume. When you zoom in to the beginning of the recorded WAV file, there's probably a few milliseconds of silence before the first downbeat. You'll have to manually cut it out or nudge the WAV file, so that the beat is on grid and in sync again. You'd have the same problem with MIDI Sync, even if you were able to offset the Clock signal.

[dest4b]

Push and my Drummachines are connected to a Mixer.
Push sends Clock signal 24PPQN to erm Multiclock. That sends clock to the Mixer.

In my Push setup there is no Audio routed back to Push.

And its not in Sync.

maybe this is the reason ..

Track 1 Kickdrum from Push starts on 1 ( as i hit play )
Track 2 Pulse from CV Tools Clock generator 24PPQN Trigger out via Pedal 1

Both SIgnals in my Mixer

Recorded on DAW in ABLETON via ADAT and Raydat PCIe

CLock signal starts 10ms before the BD starts.

[knarrrz]

Mh, okay... Hard to say where this latency comes from. I tried to reproduce it on my Push 3. I've recorded two tracks in Ableton Live, a CV Clock signal via Pedal 1 and a drum beat via the Main Out, both going into the inputs of my audio interface. But there's no latency between them, they're in sync.

[dest4b]

Push3 Standalone ?

Recorded on different device .. ? Record started before you pressed play on Push3 Standalone ?

[knarrrz]

Yes, Push 3 Standalone mode and I recorded both tracks simultaneously in Ableton Live 11 on my Mac. I pressed Record before hitting Play on the Push. I have no ERM Multiclock here, so I recorded the plain Clock signal directly through an Eurorack mixer into my audio interface.

[dest4b]

i also recorded plain audio from pedal out.

Maybe my Kickdrum Cable is to long ? that it cause 10ms latecy ?

[knarrrz]

I don't think so. The only thing that is usually causing such a latency could be either other Ableton devices in the signal chain or it's happening somewhere during the AD/DA conversion process. But that's really hard to say from here. Maybe check, if the drum sample on your Push is really on grid or if it has already some silence before it.

[dest4b]

Project on Push contains:

1. Track one . CV Tools CLock 24PPQN Trigger CV1 out ( nothing else !)
2. Track two Corekit 707 ( no other Plugins ! )
3. Master ( No Plugins )

Both Tracks are connected to a Behringer X32. This is connected to my RME Raydat PCIe via ADAT.
No other Plugins. No Delay nothing. No Latency adjust.

Both tracks are recorded in a plain project in Ableton on my DAW. All Monitoring OFF. Not synced with Push no sync at all.
just record.

Before i posted this I did the same Test with Ableton from DAW there is nearly no Latency between Corekit 707 and the Pulse signal.
But i used the ERM Multiclock plugin in this test. I can also do it with CV Tools clock later the day.

The only thing that could be different from yours is that i have connected a USB hub with two MIO XLs, but they are not assigned in this project

I will do the Test when the USB Hub is disconnected later the Day.

Also a Fact is that my Sequencers that are slaved to ERM that receives the clock from Push are at least 10-13ms to early.
And all other devices like Akai Force and my Ableton DAW are using the same 24PPQN via ERM Multiclock to sync with my hardware dont have that negaitive latency. They are running just perfect. Thats what they have to do .. thats why some users uses ERM Multiclock.

thanks for reading and understanding.

[knarrrz]

Yup, just the usual latency hassle... I also could go mad sometimes, when struggling with it. I don't really know what's causing the issue in your case. The Akai Force may have a different latency, because it also has a built-in audio interface, whereby other analog synths don't introduce latency at all. Would be really interesting to know, what's the culprit here...

[dest4b]

the issue is caused because the clock out is send to early.

[dest4b]

If i do the same test in the DAW Ableton it is looking like that:



if you take the Positive signal its about 0-0-5 ms. Not 3ms that it is in the marked area.

[knarrrz]

Yesterday I did a test again with Push, this time with the 707 Core Kit and I had exactly the same latency of 10 ms as in your test. I noticed that there is 3 ms of silence at the beginning of the kick drum sample (this is probably the 3 ms of difference in your DAW test). So there's definitely around 7 ms of latency compared to the CV out.

The 707 Core Kit contains a few audio effect devices in its return track, this may produce some of the the latency. The rest is due to the DA conversion of Push's audio interface. I don't know for sure, but it seems there's no conversion happening at the CV output, so that's why you have a difference.

But again, this is NOT a bug or a faulty hardware, every audio interface does produce a latency because of its converters. The only problem by now is that you can't set an offset for Clock signals on Push itself, in order to compensate the latency. But your ERM Multiclock can do that instead, so you actually can get around this problem. Of course, you can either set an offset so that your gear is in sync on the output of your mixer, or so that it's exactly in sync when you record it into your DAW. You cannot have both at the same time.

[dest4b]

correct i can adjust that on my ERM. But if i do that i cant record in Push because it is total screwd up in timing to the incomming audio.
If i dont adjust the latency it is nearly in sync if i use Push as Mixer or Recorder.

But i want to use my Hardware mixer.

And i tested that with Midi clock there is the Offset 15ms. And you think it is not a bug ?
If i use my other Hardware or ableton with 24PPQN the Pusle signal starts wenn Ableton is playing the Kick from Core 707 Kit as you can see in my screenshot.
I have no Latency correction in ableton in my DAW because i use ERM as lantency correction .. there is a correction of 1.4-3 ms depending on the device.
Machinedrum Analog rytm RD8 ect.

And why it is not a Bug if the Pulse signal is running out before Push plays the first Note.

In my Eyes it is a bug.
At least the Timing Bug for midi sync is Officially by Ableton.

Midi clock sync to Machinedrum Kick 4/4 from ableton and 4/4 from Machinedrum.. 15ms .. wtf. ! not a bug