L12 question about screen layouts

[Angstrom]

Is it now possible to assign hotkeys, or use shortcuts to toggle between different view layouts?

one of my major problems with Live has always been that when working on a project I need to quickly flip between screens which look like this, but I have to do it all with dragging. And unfortunately I've lost a lot of dexterity in my hands in the last couple of years so dragging windows up and down and up and down for 8 hours is a nightmare.

EG, to get to these screen layouts I'm forgever minimising with the mouse, toggling with the mouse, dragging pane borders with the mouse

Shift-tab is a useful key combo in L11 but do we have any better screen layout methods in L12. I know there's been a lot of talk about usability, but I have not noticed anything about this, which is a daily grind for me

[[jur]]

Things that you need to drag to expand are still working the same (you can use cmd+alt+E to make the clip editor fullscreen, though, but it's already a L11 feature).
In L12 you have (new, sometimes) shortcuts to open/close and ones to focus almost every view/panel.

[Angstrom]

(you can use cmd+alt+E to make the clip editor fullscreen, though, but it's already a L11 feature).

Thanks. If I knew that one, I'd forgotten it.

They could do with adding a similar one for the increasing range of "big" devices. Cmd +alt+D perhaps?

[Stefan Jantschek]

May I add some thougts to Angstroms question here, even if its L12 Beta related.

As much as I value the new screen layout features, the more obvious is
the confusion it creates.

There is more and more inconsistence added, e.g. some elements have full screen shortcuts (clip editor),
others have two different key commands (Mixer), there are elements we can only open or
resize with mouse-fumble (Wavetable expand) etc.

Setting up a convenient screen layout, switching TAB gives funny surprises now.
Not to mention all the new key commands I have to remember, some need two hands and max spread fingers.

I really wish they could simplify things a lot.

Why not be consequent.

- Toggle between different user screen layouts with
- User defined key commands.

In my opinion this is a bit beyond just suggestion,
more like a direction to go in terms of UI Design.

That´s why I like to bring it up here.

*S.

[H20nly]

I’d be happy with a printable list of commands that doesn’t look like a wall of text. It’s hard to use commands you don’t know exist

[Stefan Jantschek]

I’d be happy with a printable list of commands that doesn’t look like a wall of text. It’s hard to use commands you don’t know exist

I am shure most of us would be happy.
What we have now is the confusing attempt to integrate:

• System key commands >

• Fixed application key commands >

• Legacy key commands >

• Mappable key commands >

• Computer Midi Keyboard

Dead end sreet.

But let´s not get semi-OT please, there is an ongoing discussion about user key commands already.
It´s about given screen layout options here.

Thx.
*S.

[torgruva]

I've used bettertouchtool since forever on my mac to map custom shortcuts to Live's default layout and zoom shortcuts plus specific menu options (still wanna figure out how to map right-click context menus..). And since I map most of them with the "option" modifier it never interferes with default Ableton shortcuts or inputting notes from my keyboard.

Just as an example in the 12 beta, I can have Wavetable expanded about halfway then stack the clip editor above it, then hide either of those views to see the clip editor in full-screen, the clip launcher, and browser with a simple two-button keyboard shortcut. You can also use the second window, so you can have the device view for wavetable expanded fully and the clip editor, etc., in the other window.

Haven't found a Live shortcut to open/close Live's expanded device views, but setting up a shortcut system that works for you can help mitigate/work around that when you need them open.

Hope that helps, and if you're on windows maybe someone can recommend an equivalent solution!

[[jur]]

May I add some thougts to Angstroms question here, even if its L12 Beta related.

As much as I value the new screen layout features, the more obvious is
the confusion it creates.

There is more and more inconsistence added, e.g. some elements have full screen shortcuts (clip editor),
others have two different key commands (Mixer), there are elements we can only open or
resize with mouse-fumble (Wavetable expand) etc.

Setting up a convenient screen layout, switching TAB gives funny surprises now.
Not to mention all the new key commands I have to remember, some need two hands and max spread fingers.

I really wish they could simplify things a lot.

Why not be consequent.

- Toggle between different user screen layouts with
- User defined key commands.

In my opinion this is a bit beyond just suggestion,
more like a direction to go in terms of UI Design.

That´s why I like to bring it up here.

*S.

Definitely bring this discussion to Centercode please! Some L12 changes in this area are terrible mistakes imo, it’s a very serious topic and it needs more voices, especially since those changes are motivated by improving accessibility.

[Stefan Jantschek]

Definitely bring this discussion to Centercode please! Some L12 changes in this area are terrible mistakes imo, it’s a very serious topic and it needs more voices, especially since those changes are motivated by improving accessibility.

Okay, thanks Jur, I see.

"terrible mistakes" is an obviously clear statement.
It appears like there is more restraint controversy on that matter than expected.

As you said, this area deserves some competent contribution, but from the "Inner Circle" too, imo.

Honestly, I dont´t expect much movement here software-side, but maybe we can get some
comprehensible arguments for their "way" of changes.
Which seems to be the clear opposite of simplifying user accessibility.

I will bring this case to Centercode, let´s see how much attention it gets.
Forum discussion/suggestion/both?

Just trying to find a suitable headline

*S.

[Angstrom]

Definitely bring this discussion to Centercode please! Some L12 changes in this area are terrible mistakes imo, it’s a very serious topic and it needs more voices, especially since those changes are motivated by improving accessibility.

Well, I suspect by the time I get access to centercode that L12 will be released. I'm also doubtful that it will accomplish anything though. I'm not sure what leverage the accessibility expert on staff has, so I doubt random forum users can accomplish much here.

Just from experience though. Currently what I do is take a dose of my drugs half an hour before I start using Ableton so I can use it. Before I got these drugs I found that locating the drag points and marble toggles with the mouse was a two handed impossibility. I just couldn't zero in on them. They are too small. But TBH I couldn't do much as most items are densely packed, so I wonder what could be even done beyond thought control.

[Stefan Jantschek]

Well, I suspect by the time I get access to centercode that L12 will be released. I'm also doubtful that it will accomplish anything though. I'm not sure what leverage the accessibility expert on staff has, so I doubt random forum users can accomplish much here.

Come on Dude,
"They" ripped the tag browser concept from you,
didn´t they?
Now we just wanna find out why it took that long...

[Angstrom]

Come on Dude,
"They" ripped the tag browser concept from you,
didn´t they?
Now we just wanna find out why it took that long...

Some people have called me "the illegitimate father of the Ableton tag browser" , I tell them "No, I'm just a humble misunderstood genius, existing on the outskirts of society, I cant claim that honour ".

It's understandable they don't want me to meet my own child !

[Tarekith]

Parentage of the browser is still being determined by the courts.

[Stefan Jantschek]

Followed Jur´s suggestion, I forwarded the topic to Centercode Forum.

I would love to get your thoughts on the topic there.

*S.