Cinema Surround Sound - Ableton Live, Master Audio Output

[nowstanding]

When I connect my Macbook Pro to the surround sound system in a cinema we are using to perform with HDMI going to the system for video/audio, the audio is normally automatically sent to all available speakers generally using the Mac without any DAW application, creating a cohesive audio experience. However, when I use Ableton Live, I found that the software splits this cinema's surround sources into separate outputs instead of keeping them grouped together which has proven to be a difficulty as it does not show up like this in its Mac MIDI Audio settings, only in Live. I need to output to the entire system in the master output in Ableton Live but I can only select one of the many speakers listed in the session view. (Master out.)

My objective is to have all available output speakers of the surround sound system in Ableton Live act as a unified group, similar to how the audio behaves when connected directly through HDMI without using Ableton Live. I have explored the settings within Ableton Live but haven't been able to achieve the desired result as this is new to me.

Would I be able to get guidance on how I can configure Ableton Live to route the audio to all speakers as a group, ensuring a seamless and synchronized audio output?

I appreciate your prompt attention to this matter and look forward to your guidance in resolving this issue.

[Calagan]

I’m not sure I can help but it’s an interesting problem.
I didn’t know HDMI audio out could work natively in surround or multichannel.

What format is your source ?
how many audio channels ?

You need to know that Ableton works only in stereo, so if you want to output multi-channel you’ll have to break the source into various stereo busses, then redirect each stereo bus to the appropriate surround channel using external outputs.
For this, you’ll need to know exactly how to translate from surround to stereo. I’m not sure it’s even possible in Live without using another daw with multichannel feature (like Reaper) or without an appropriate plugin…

Are tou obliged to use Live for this ?
And by the way, why are you using Live ?

[nowstanding]

Hi there,

Thank you for your input on this ongoing issue.

I started this project last year combining timecodes and samples for my style of performance which I use Live for in session that communicates to Arena as part of my setup which I am obliged to use at this time as my first DAW I am learning.

Thank you for mentioning this information. There were about 22 available split outputs over the venue's HDMI going to their technical room, which at first I couldn't make out if the technicians could split my audio from my laptop to all speakers on their end but for now, I am inquiring in advance to come back to when we get a chance to look at this setup later this year.

I have a USB YAMAHA MG10XU which can receive output audio over USB which may be an alternative avenue to look down as a plan B if this proves to be a longer path to resolve in my timeframe and free time to do this.

Good point on how we need to translate this from surround to stereo. If I can only choose one output source in master out then I may need to create an aggregate source to then use as an output to have more options to group all stereo speakers together.

I am currently unsure what third-party apps could be used for this if needs be. On my Mac as we mentioned before we used MIDI settings where you can group sources however the speakers are grouped together as one source in that menu and in Live as I have experienced isn't one source but many.

Thanks.

[Calagan]

I'm not sure I understand you.

Correct me if I'm wrong :
- your audio source is actually stereo
- when you want to play your music in a cinema, connecting your Live set to their surround system, instead of playing your source on all the speakers like when using HDMI out, it plays only on 2 channels
- but when you play your music using the HDMI out, it plays equally on each speaker. So if I understand it good, the stereo mix is copied to the 22 speakers, but there is no difference between (for exemple) the front speakers and the rear speakers...

The main question is, why can't you use HDMI as audio out in Live (like if it were an audio interface) ?

By the way, if you fix your output issue and want to spatialize your audio, you can also use a built-in Ableton Live M4L pack : Surround Panner.
https://www.ableton.com/fr/packs/surround-panner/
With this M4L plugin, you can set until 8 output channels, and send each stereo track to a selection of channels.
It's not 22 channels, but it's not that bad and I guess you could create kind of groups using 2 channels on more than 2 speakers : front speakers (2 channels) Rear speakers (2 channels) side speakers left (2 channels) side speakers right (2 channels).
In this exemple, even if you've got 10 speakers on each side, you should be able to play the stereo group "side speakers" on each side.

Again, I'm not a specialist in surround and I may say complete bullshit (be cautious with everything I'm saying ah ah ah) but I'm interested in this problem and I would be curious how you can fix your issue (I may want to do the same multichannel stuff one day)...

[nowstanding]

Hi there, I'll do my best to reiterate and answer your helpful questions.

The speaker output source is stereo, yes. I only use HDMI as the output to connect to the speakers. Using Live splits this stereo source whereas in the audio connections in my Mac settings list this stereo source as a single source to connect to. So in Live, they are ungrouped but in Mac settings, they are grouped.

When I play my music in this cinema, I can only click on one output source in master out. I found out that the venue's speakers are called 15/16, 17/18, 19/20, and 21/22 and the 1-22 may also be my aggregate audio device, Black Hole. However when I clicked on some of these sources before it was outputting to the venue's speakers. So, I am also confused about how to identify which output channels are the venues and which are the Aggregate audio devices. I remember trying to name them but naming the source didn't work out in the settings for me.

RE: Your main question - why can't I use HDMI as audio out in Live (like if it were an audio interface) - As I mentioned the channels are split in Live and not outside of the DAW App. Outside of Ableton it is just named as a single output audio device to connect to which is confusing why I haven't got the same source in Ableton Live.

[nowstanding]

Thank you for reaching out to the Ableton Support Team regarding your surround sound setup in Ableton Live.

Unfortunately, Ableton Live does not natively support surround sound routing. However, there are alternative approaches you can explore to achieve your desired outcome.

External Routing: You can use external routing solutions to route Ableton Live's stereo output to multiple channels of your surround sound system. This might involve using audio interface software, virtual audio routing tools, or hardware routing solutions.
Note about the Aggregate audio device - the first channels in Live's preferences are always the first device shown in the Audio MIDI Setup (like in your video). If one of these devices is unavailable, or the device order switches, the input names you added can be lost. (This is a known bug we have already filed).

SPAT and Surround Panner Live Packs: Ableton Live offers additional Live Packs, such as SPAT and Surround Panner, which can extend the software's capabilities for spatial audio processing. These packs may provide tools and features to enhance your surround sound experience within Ableton Live.

We understand the importance of a seamless audio experience, and while Ableton Live may not have native support for surround sound, these alternatives can help you achieve your goals. And while we cannot comment on future development plans, we are certainly aware of the need of better support for multichannel audio.

If you need further assistance or have any questions about implementing these solutions, please don't hesitate to reach out.

Best regards,
Tim

[dsu]

When I connect my Macbook Pro to the surround sound system in a cinema we are using to perform with HDMI going to the system for video/audio, the audio is normally automatically sent to all available speakers generally using the Mac without any DAW application, creating a cohesive audio experience.

What program are you using on your Macbook to connect both video and audio to the theatre system?

I am guessing that you are playing some video that has been previously mixed for a multi channel theatre system. If this is the case the program you are using to play back the video and audio understands how HDMI works and has assigned the individual audio elements to an audio track in the theatre,

It is important to understand that a mix engineer assigned the individual audio elements to the various HDMI channels and that another engineer who setup the theatre connected the HDMI channels to the various speakers. There are standard for how this works so content can be portable from one theatre to another.

However, when I use Ableton Live, I found that the software splits this cinema's surround sources into separate outputs instead of keeping them grouped together which has proven to be a difficulty as it does not show up like this in its Mac MIDI Audio settings, only in Live. I need to output to the entire system in the master output in Ableton Live but I can only select one of the many speakers listed in the session view. (Master out.)

Ableton by default assumes a stereo output. If you want a multi channel out you have to tell Ableton where you want things to go. In a typical theatrical mix environment someone has already configured the DAW to reflect the 5.1 or 9.1 configuration.

My objective is to have all available output speakers of the surround sound system in Ableton Live act as a unified group, similar to how the audio behaves when connected directly through HDMI without using Ableton Live. I have explored the settings within Ableton Live but haven't been able to achieve the desired result as this is new to me.

If we ignore the confusion of seeing all of those outputs, How do you want Live to behave in the theatre?

The first step is to get a map of which HDMI channel goes to which speaker in the theatre.

The second step is to decide which of your audio channels you want to go to which speaker. This is the work that someone did so that when you play a multi-channel video through HDMI into the theatre sound system you don't see the details of the individual channels.

For example,
HDMI Channel 1 and 2 are located left and right of the stage.

Your music is a stereo so the default assignment of 1 and 2 should work just like a normal PA.

However if you want to take advantage of the speakers place all around the room, you will need decide how you want to use them. The simplest approach would be just route the left channel into the speakers on the left side and similarly on the right side. But this might not sound better because of the phase cancelation if the timing between the speakers is not properly adjusted.

My first impression is to:

1. configure your Live set so instead of routing your mix to the Master bus, route it to an Audio Track named SubMaster.

2. Setup a bunch of Audio tracks to output to the external outs in HDMI of each stereo group in the theatre.

3 Setup each of the external routing audio channels to have the SubMaster as an input.

This configuration might sound muddy in the room but you could play around with only using certain stereo pairs or if you have time using the Delay to time align the speakers. A challenging task for sure.

Would I be able to get guidance on how I can configure Ableton Live to route the audio to all speakers as a group, ensuring a seamless and synchronized audio output?

While your goal is achievable in Ableton Live it is not straight forward engineering problem


I appreciate your prompt attention to this matter and look forward to your guidance in resolving this issue.

[nowstanding]

Hello, thank you for your input on this ongoing project.

Ableton is the audio and Resolume is the video. To connect both I am using timecodes with the plugin Blackhole for an aggregate audio device. Without using Live the audio is a stereo output I believe. In Mac settings, it appears as a single output source which originally I thought would show up in Ableton Live but the source wasn’t a single device. I don’t intend to have the setup as advanced for each speaker to have something different but to behave as a stereo output for a Left and Right, for all speakers on the left to be a Left and all on the Right speakers to be a Right. It gives me one output for behind the screen in the middle of the stage and a subwoofer as well to take into consideration, I believe it may have been already a grouped section available to me for that area.

I am grateful for your advice which sounds like a good plan and achievable, however, with my setup on both applications including Live, using audio channels for music, samples and timecodes on two separate groups in my project is giving my Macbook Pro some lag during the performance which may be a concern such as slow response to triggering clips and lag on frames for the audio monitors at some points I noticed in the past but wasn’t critical, I may have to experiment to see what caused it as it has been a year since I last used this project.

[dsu]

Good luck with the performance!

[nowstanding]

Thank you,

I have managed successfully to set up digital channel separation for this project as intended.

[dsu]

Thank you,

I have managed successfully to set up digital channel separation for this project as intended.

Congratulations!