tldr version:
Please include an option in the preferences that implements Velocits Sensitivity the Correct way. Means = Playing a sample at full velocity plays the sample at it's original volume, playing it with a softer velocity, plays it quieter. Right now if you increase velocity sensitivity in Ableton, it will make notes/samples played at full velocity louder than the sample actually is, instead of playing notes with less velocity quieter. this makes it impossible to change velocity sensitivity without the whole mix being thrown off since the max possible loudness always changes instead of just having more articulation in the notes/samples being played.
Example:
If you import a sample that goes to 0dbu into Simpler and put Simplers Volume at -12dbu and Velocity at 0 and strike a note, Simpler will output to -12db (sample goes to 0dbu - 12db reduction from Simpler). But if I now increase the Velocity sensitivity, instead of notes with lower velocity sounding quieter, the volume of notes with max velocity gets increased, which means the sample now actually gets louder and shoots even above 0dbu of Lives interal mixer.
It would be much more logical to play with the velocity settings (on high hats for example) and keep the loudest note always at the same level, to hear the difference of playing with more or less dynamics, instead of always having to constantly catch up by manipulating the Simpler volume or Lives Mixer fader to keep the balance of the overall mix intact.
I know this can't be implemented by default because it would break compatability with older sets, but it would be great if it could be made an option in the preferences.
Implement Velocity Sensitivity the correct way in Simpler/Sampler
Implement Velocity Sensitivity the correct way in Simpler/Sampler
Last edited by docbot on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Option to invert how Velocity Sensitivity is applied
"It would be much more logical to play with the velocity settings (on high hats for example) and keep the loudest note always at the same level"
No, it wouldn't be more logical.
It would make every velocity-sensitive controller feel LESS sensitive, as the louder (and actually audible) higher velocity notes would barely change evne with Vol<Vel modulation set to max values, while it would make low velocity sounds which are already hard to listen even less audible.
And you can already use the Velocity device to customize the curve, you can even invert it, setting Out Hi to 0 and Out Low to 127.
No, it wouldn't be more logical.
It would make every velocity-sensitive controller feel LESS sensitive, as the louder (and actually audible) higher velocity notes would barely change evne with Vol<Vel modulation set to max values, while it would make low velocity sounds which are already hard to listen even less audible.
And you can already use the Velocity device to customize the curve, you can even invert it, setting Out Hi to 0 and Out Low to 127.
♥♥♥
Re: Option to invert how Velocity Sensitivity is applied
The Velocity Device does something totally different, it inverts loudness of the Notes played, so notes with lower velocity become louder than notes played with higher velocity.pottering wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:40 am"It would be much more logical to play with the velocity settings (on high hats for example) and keep the loudest note always at the same level"
No, it wouldn't be more logical.
It would make every velocity-sensitive controller feel LESS sensitive, as the louder (and actually audible) higher velocity notes would barely change evne with Vol<Vel modulation set to max values, while it would make low velocity sounds which are already hard to listen even less audible.
And you can already use the Velocity device to customize the curve, you can even invert it, setting Out Hi to 0 and Out Low to 127.
Also of course sensitivity would stay exactly the same, the volume would just adhear to the set max volume. Right now if you set the volume of a sample and increase the velocity sensitivity you have no idea where the max volume will end up, except that it will spike into the red of your mixer.
little example:
Take a 4/4 BD Drum that hits at around -12db. Now draw a 8th HH pattern with velocity variation and set simpler to 0% velocity sensitivity.
Now the HH Pattern has zero variation but is in a correct volume relation to the BD Drum. Now if you increase the velocity sensitivity, I would expect to hear more variation in the HH Pattern with some notes ghosting, being quieter. But with the current way it's implemented, it means that now certain HH Notes will be way louder than the BD Drum, which throws your whole volume relations off and means you have to back down the track fader to get it in relation again and you basically have to do this every time you change the Velocity Sensitivity, because it will always change total volume of notes with 127 velocity. Would it be the other way around and notes with lower velocity simply get quieter, which results in exactly the same dynamic, sensitivity, it would be way more convenient.
But different opinion I guess. I just don't see why increasing velocity sensitivity should automatically mean that the signal will spike over Lives's Fader (0dbU)
Re: Option to invert how Velocity Sensitivity is applied
still annoyed by this! playing a sample with full velocity 127 should play the sample at its full loudness and not louder. reaper does this correct. please include an option for Ableton to behave in a expected way
Re: Implement Velocity Sensitivity the correct way
If Simpler indeed does this (never tried it), that's up to Simpler, not Live. I know that Sampler, Analog and Operator (which I do use) don't do that.
Velocity is always interpreted by the receiving device. Most devices of course, interpret it the way the OP asked...max velocity yields the same level as when velocity is turned off, and lower velocities yield lower levels (unless the receiving device supports negative velocity modulation).
Velocity is always interpreted by the receiving device. Most devices of course, interpret it the way the OP asked...max velocity yields the same level as when velocity is turned off, and lower velocities yield lower levels (unless the receiving device supports negative velocity modulation).
Re: Implement Velocity Sensitivity the correct way
Hello Doghouse, you are correct it is by definition a error in Simpler/Sampler.doghouse wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:11 pmIf Simpler indeed does this (never tried it), that's up to Simpler, not Live. I know that Sampler, Analog and Operator (which I do use) don't do that.
Velocity is always interpreted by the receiving device. Most devices of course, interpret it the way the OP asked...max velocity yields the same level as when velocity is turned off, and lower velocities yield lower levels (unless the receiving device supports negative velocity modulation).
Re: Implement Velocity Sensitivity the correct way in Simpler/Sampler
From my experiments. If you set at vol < vol at 50 and to -12db and hit a note at 127 velocity, it's the same level as setting vel sens to 0 and volume to 0
Re: Implement Velocity Sensitivity the correct way in Simpler/Sampler
Just chiming in to say that I've also noticed the Simpler behavior described in the original post, and that it seems incorrect to me. In this case 'incorrect' may be somewhat subjective, but it seems obvious that the volume should be consistent for max velocity values (127) regardless of the velocity->volume setting, and that increasing the velocity->volume percentage should increase the proportion by which lower velocities decrease the volume, without also increasing the max volume.
Unfortunately, Drum Sampler appears to work the same way, so there's no help there. Sampler has a velocity->volume control that works the same way, but it also offers velocity mapping via the MIDI modulation section, which does in fact maintain a constant max volume. Waves CR8 also maintains a consistent max volume.
As described in the original post, a problem with how velocity->volume mapping is implemented in the Ableton Samplers is that the velocity->volume setting seems to modify the dynamic range in both directions. So if you have a kick track with most of the notes at max velocity, and some at a lower velocity, and you decide you want the quieter ones to be quieter still, and so you turn up the velocity->volume percentage, not only do the quieter notes gets quieter, the louder notes get louder! Way louder, depending, to the point of clipping and distorting. And of course this means with any adjustment to velocity->volume, you'll probably have to readjust your mix, which you really shouldn't have to do.
I know this isn't the kind of thing that's likely to change, but I'm just posting for informational purposes, in case other people end up here looking for information on this.
Unfortunately, Drum Sampler appears to work the same way, so there's no help there. Sampler has a velocity->volume control that works the same way, but it also offers velocity mapping via the MIDI modulation section, which does in fact maintain a constant max volume. Waves CR8 also maintains a consistent max volume.
As described in the original post, a problem with how velocity->volume mapping is implemented in the Ableton Samplers is that the velocity->volume setting seems to modify the dynamic range in both directions. So if you have a kick track with most of the notes at max velocity, and some at a lower velocity, and you decide you want the quieter ones to be quieter still, and so you turn up the velocity->volume percentage, not only do the quieter notes gets quieter, the louder notes get louder! Way louder, depending, to the point of clipping and distorting. And of course this means with any adjustment to velocity->volume, you'll probably have to readjust your mix, which you really shouldn't have to do.
I know this isn't the kind of thing that's likely to change, but I'm just posting for informational purposes, in case other people end up here looking for information on this.