LUFS in live performance

[xkx]

Hello

I don't usually use Ableton Live for live performance, but I will be using it for an upcoming performance. I will have 3 stereo outs going to my sound engineers main mixer. A couple of questions.

Do you put a limiter on each stereo out chain?

Do you aim for a certain LUFS reading?

If you route the three separate stereo outs, how do you stop out from the master channel in that case?

[nednerb]

This is from Bob Katz, in an essay titled "An Integrated Approach to Metering, Monitoring, and Levelling Practices":

Compression is a powerful esthetic tool. However, it should be recognized the higher the monitor gain, the less compression is needed to make material sound good or “punchy”. “Use less processing, just turn up the monitor,” is good advice for clients.

My guess is that if ANY microphones will be used on stage, you should give lots of headroom, both peak and loudness.

That could mean following some kind of standard, in your own preparation, so that you're running around -23 LUFS Integrated, but ultimately, that could give you headroom with appropriate peak control of around 10 dB still. Note these numbers: around -10 dBFS peak with around -23 LUFS, it gives approximately 13 dB of Loudness Range across the time.

Maybe the sets are all very dense electro, very compressed and loud, so expectations are hurt ears in the morning.... in that case, tighten down the peaks, but do not raise the LUFS!!! Just turn up your speakers. If it sounds clearer (still sounds nice/as intended) at this point, it will probably sound better in a greater number of environments, like Katz advice rings to my ears.

(((Unless the house mixer and amplification is super tiny, they will appreciate the option of turning your set up)))

[nednerb]

As for the last question...

If you send the three stereo outs via their own "Output Channel" in Live using your interface hardware outs directly from the track, the Master channel would not be going to the Mixer, correct? Are there a bunch of other tracks feeding the Master channel in Live at the same time? I almost think it should be silent if the content is being routed out of specific stereo outs.

Are you using a Cue Out from Live? You could literally just turn down the volume output entirely on the Master channel, in case a valid output is needed to play the other channels (I did not check the second part, but the solution should work..)

[Angstrom]

I usually put a limiter on the outs, it adds a tiny bit of latency but not as much as my tired old meat does.

Honestly, the well meaning "mix master pros" arent having to follow DJ Skullcrusher's set. You arent mastering Fleetwood Mac here. Bob Katz is a well meaning man from a different century. Do what you like but I've been doing this since the early 90s, and live events ... .your rig will be quiiieeeet. No mattter what the promoter tells you, or the FOH assures you at sound check. At 2am that rig will be slamming.
The LUFS you will be aiming for is "as loud as I can without it sounding shit". If you are amid DJ sets , depending on their genre they could be anything from -8LUFS for someone really chill ... to -3. Because some genres are mastered LOUD, no matter what the various opinionated youtube experts say, if you are even thinking of aiming for something like -14 that will sound very wimpy coming in between even mild mannered DJs.

I use a bit of saturation, the multiband, and lots of other tricks on my outs in a vague attempt to level match. I probably get it to around 8ish and let the FOH take it from there. If you are lucky the FOH engineer will care and do something to help the sound in the room.

Just dont do too much, especially on the low end/sub, don't compress that for volume IMO. Pump it, against the kick, sure, but dont try and compress it to make the bass end "powerful". Tighten that up low end tighter than a gnats anus. I actually have a MultiBand preset which increases the dynamic range (expansion) of everything below 100ish HZ, because on a big rig that big fat low kick and bass will sound like deep wobbly mush if it isnt tight tight tight.

What do you do with the main outs? Well, Mains go to 1&2 , the next bus gets routed to 3&4, the last goes to 5&6. then you should have some spare for pre-listen, or hardware loopback, or whatever.

[nednerb]

Yes, this kind of advice though, (from the 80s and 90s, where Bob Katz learned, hmmmmm, strange idiosyncratic inconsistency there, but whatevs!!!) also leads to what international audiologists are lamenting as future generations of people with hearing loss. When I got my professional custom moulds done for earplugs and did a hearing test, on the wall was a poster about how when we lose our hearing sensitivity because of the "nearest to shit as possible" that went into them, we also risk losing our ability to hear loved ones, then to simply have a functioning human consciousness.

In essence, super loud volume is a reason for some cases of dementia being preventable. We have an option to turn things down, and secure our futures as musicians. It's important the crowd keeps hearing. Hearing loss is occurring at earlier and earlier ages JUST AS neuroscience is catching up the idea that brain cells CAN grow past the age of 25, even into our 90s.

So.... EVEN THOUGH lots of advice, poor advice, will say "just be as loud or louder than ever", the Audio Engineering Society of 2025 is the voice of many more audio engineers than Katz or myself, or "wimpy...DJs", and we like music, we like listening.

A FoH that has NO gain or compression will sound lower volume beside a very loud digital, but the overall blend between artists turns to what's shite, not the individual merit of a digital loudness level. The experience is what's shite, and why people would be avoiding such dance floors.

[Tarekith]

Another vote for don’t worry about LUFS at all for live performance. I usually try and leave about 2-3dB of headroom on the individual outs, and let the sound guy manage the overall levels. I usually have limiters on the outputs too (or a small analog mixer in line) so I can turn things up on my end even more if my signals just can’t compete with who was playing before me. Usually only an issue when sharing the stage with DJs before and after me.