Midi takeover mode problem

[spinlud]

I am mapping a Kontrol F1 controller to Ableton, it has two layers: default and shift (activated by pressing the SHIFT button on the controler).
The shift layer allows you to assign different messages to the controls, for example you can assign CC 9 to a fader in the default layer and CC 50 to the same fader in the shift layer.

I would like to control two different faders on Ableton using the same fader on the controller, switching between the two using shift. To avoid value jumps, I have activated the midi takeover mode in Ableton but it is not working as expected:



When I switch layer and change fader value, I can still see value jumps when controller fader position does not match the actual value on Ableton. The takeover mode seems to work only when moving the values in Ableton with the mouse. Is this a bug or the inteded behaviour?

[Rivanni]

Did you try Value Scaling instead of Pickup?

[spinlud]

Yes, unfortunately same issue

[[jur]]

I'd be interesting to check what's happening at the output of your Kontrol F1 before it reaches Live.
I'm wondering if, somehow, for some reason, the SHIFT button/behaviour could be faulty.

[spinlud]

I'd be interesting to check what's happening at the output of your Kontrol F1 before it reaches Live.
I'm wondering if, somehow, for some reason, the SHIFT button/behaviour could be faulty.

Nothing particular happens, it just changes fader midi CC as expected, in the image you can see it changes from cc 6 to cc 47 and viceversa when the shift button is pressed. It seems to me the controller is working perfectly fine.

[RobrechtV]

In think the answer is here:

The takeover mode seems to work only when moving the values in Ableton with the mouse.

Takeover mode determines what happens when two different controls (mouse and MIDI) affecting the same Live parameter value cause it to be out of sync with one of them.

Changing the value with the mouse causes it to be out of sync with the hardware controller, so next time you move the controller, the selected behavior (pickup) kicks in.

Your use of the shift button on the controller does not fall under this scenario. Ableton Live is just listening for a certain CC: from its perspective, in the screenshot you posted, CC6 moved incrementally from 22 to 0, stayed 0 for a while, and then made a slightly larger jump from 0 to 12, as if you suddenly moved the knob really quickly. Such a jump in MIDI values is not unusual: since MIDI's temporal resolution is finite, a fast controller movement will easily skip some intermediate values. Even in your screenshot, the initial slow movement from 22 to 0 drops a couple (20, 16, 14...).

So the parameter value mapped to CC6 follows that jump just like it followed the smaller increments before it (from 22 to 0), because as far as Live is concerned, nothing is out of sync – no other controller, like the mouse, has affected the mapped parameter. Live has no way of knowing that during that pause, the same hardware button was controlling a different CC and that's the reason it suddenly ended up in a different position.

So for this scenario, the pickup behavior you're looking for should be implemented on the MIDI controller's side – if that's possible with the Kontrol F1.

[spinlud]

In think the answer is here:

The takeover mode seems to work only when moving the values in Ableton with the mouse.

Takeover mode determines what happens when two different controls (mouse and MIDI) affecting the same Live parameter value cause it to be out of sync with one of them.

Changing the value with the mouse causes it to be out of sync with the hardware controller, so next time you move the controller, the selected behavior (pickup) kicks in.

Your use of the shift button on the controller does not fall under this scenario. Ableton Live is just listening for a certain CC: from its perspective, in the screenshot you posted, CC6 moved incrementally from 22 to 0, stayed 0 for a while, and then made a slightly larger jump from 0 to 12, as if you suddenly moved the knob really quickly. Such a jump in MIDI values is not unusual: since MIDI's temporal resolution is finite, a fast controller movement will easily skip some intermediate values. Even in your screenshot, the initial slow movement from 22 to 0 drops a couple (20, 16, 14...).

So the parameter value mapped to CC6 follows that jump just like it followed the smaller increments before it (from 22 to 0), because as far as Live is concerned, nothing is out of sync – no other controller, like the mouse, has affected the mapped parameter. Live has no way of knowing that during that pause, the same hardware button was controlling a different CC and that's the reason it suddenly ended up in a different position.

So for this scenario, the pickup behavior you're looking for should be implemented on the MIDI controller's side – if that's possible with the Kontrol F1.

Hi, thanks for the answer!

From the manual:

"Pick-Up — Moving the physical control has no effect until it reaches the value of its destination parameter. As soon as they are equal, the destination value tracks the control’s value 1:1. This option can provide smooth value changes, but it can be difficult to estimate exactly where the pick-up will take place."

This is not what it is happening:

• I move the controller fader (cc 6) to 0 value, Ableton parameter also goes to 0 value.

• Switch layer on the controller using SHIFT, now controller fader is on a different cc (47).

• I move the controller fader to a different value respect to Ableton parameter, say 127. Because controller fader is currently on cc 47, it doesn't affect Ableton parameter which is listening for cc 6 so it remains at 0 value.

• I switch back layer on the controller, so the fader controls cc 6 again.

• I move the fader controller, Ableton parameter instantly jumps from 0 to 127 instead of waiting for the controller to pickup the value.

I am not sure what logic Ableton is using but it doesn't seem to work as stated in the manual.

[chapelier fou]

I totally get your issue but pickup mode only works when a parameter has been changed with the mouse.
When you think of it, how would the computer know that you didn't intentionally send a stepped MIDI message ?

[spinlud]

I totally get your issue but pickup mode only works when a parameter has been changed with the mouse.
When you think of it, how would the computer know that you didn't intentionally send a stepped MIDI message ?

I think the question is more like: why would you want to use stepped midi messages in takeover pickup mode? If I want to use stepped behaviour, I wouldn't use pickup mode to be honest.

Maybe this could be solvable adding an additional customizable parameter when you select pickup mode, something like "max step range" where the user can specify the max value a midi message can change the value...selecting a low value will prevent jumps while with high values you can have jumps if you need it.

[RobrechtV]

Takeover mode – and its description in the manual – doesn't come into the equation here because no other control means has intervened. It's just one continuous controller that happens to output a bigger value jump at one point.

Your "max step range" idea seems sensible. MIDI is always stepped, it's just the larger jumps you want to avoid, so it would indeed be a matter of setting a threshold. That actually sounds like something that could be implemented in Max4Live.

I wonder if this device does something like it. I can't tell for sure from the comments, but the description for its "Custom takeover mode" sounds like it refers to your issue. The idea is that you map your MIDI controls to the M4L device using the CC Learn button, then map the device to the parameter you want to control.

[chapelier fou]

I totally get your issue but pickup mode only works when a parameter has been changed with the mouse.
When you think of it, how would the computer know that you didn't intentionally send a stepped MIDI message ?

I think the question is more like: why would you want to use stepped midi messages in takeover pickup mode? If I want to use stepped behaviour, I wouldn't use pickup mode to be honest.

I meant, what if you sequence your CCs externally, or if you assign the same cc to both a fader and a min/max switch for instance.