Parallel chain for External Hardwear Processing , How to Proper set up?

[spanktron]

I need help in order to avoid and predict issues and errors in my planning.

I want to create a parallel chain using which i can:

Split a signal, let`s say as an example 0-200 hz and 200-20000hz. I then want to send the 200-20000 signal through to an external
processor and then come back into Ableton. So my concern is Time-Phase alignment.

Am i missing something? What can go wrong (literally) ? Is this prone to frequencies clashing and getting out of Phase on the X-Over point?
Is this going to introduce time discrepancies between the signal that went outside and back and the one that stayed in the Daw (the 0-200hz one).

Would appreciate your thinking power

[[jur]]

You could probably minimise phase differences by splitting freq ranges using a linear phase splitter (you can do this with native Live devices - google is your friend).
Then, sending the signal out to hardware and getting it back will inevitably introduce latency... and thus phase "issues". The External Audio Effect device has a builtin delay, but you could also use Align Delay, depending on how you're routing your signal.

[spanktron]

You could probably minimise phase differences by splitting freq ranges using a linear phase splitter (you can do this with native Live devices - google is your friend).
Then, sending the signal out to hardware and getting it back will inevitably introduce latency... and thus phase "issues". The External Audio Effect device has a builtin delay, but you could also use Align Delay, depending on how you're routing your signal.

Hi there and thanks for chipping in.

My main issue is that as you said, there is latency. Now i know that it is theoretically possible to adjust the delay of the channels to be in sync (ideally) but in real life conditions i always find it an pretty unnerving process with a big great lot that can go wrong - a lot one can miss.

Thats why i am thinking that maybe the best would be to send both signals outside and back. Question is where do i send the signal i want to remain dry in order to have the same delay as the Wet one? I am wondering if it was sufficient if i send it through a external mixer or something even more neutral and then bring it back in. Dunno f this would add the exact same latency though.

I think the most reliable solution would be a hardwear signal splitter i.e a X-over. This would solve everything.
However i am not aware of such a device yet at least not for critical processing. I only know the ones for P.A speakers such as LD Systems X 223 Active Crossover etc

[[jur]]

Thats why i am thinking that maybe the best would be to send both signals outside and back.

Way too convoluted, and it'll probably introduce even more issues to deal with.
Just calculate the latency from your external routing once and you'll be good (just don't change any buffer size afterward).

[spanktron]

Thats why i am thinking that maybe the best would be to send both signals outside and back.

Way too convoluted, and it'll probably introduce even more issues to deal with.
Just calculate the latency from your external routing once and you'll be good (just don't change any buffer size afterward).

Would you mind sharing your thoughts regarding introducing more issues? Genuine curiosity

[[jur]]

Well, you already pointed it out: routing the dry via another external device will cause a different latency.
Since you have latency with the wet already, no need to introduce another one with the dry. One latency to deal with is enough!

[spanktron]

Well, you already pointed it out: routing the dry via another external device will cause a different latency.
Since you have latency with the wet already, no need to introduce another one with the dry. One latency to deal with is enough!

I was thinking going out the soundcard with 4 channels. 2 for below 200hz that i hardwire with cables from the output to the input of the interface
and two channels 200-20000hz go through the external compressor, saturator etc. As far as i know the latency of a signal going through a hardwear is negligible and almost zero but i would like to hear from someone who has done this and even more interesting if they have actually measured it. My issue is that i cannot try this as i don`t have the external saturator yet so i am gathering as much information as i can from
people who have done this in real life as we all know, nothing beats real life experience

However i see it`s a niche issue so i don`t see much enthusiasm in the amount of answers
I think it is one of those lonely paths one needs to go

[[jur]]

As far as i know the latency of a signal going through a hardwear is negligible and almost zero

"Almost zero" is exactly where you're creating "weird" phase interaction. "Phase" is just time, but at a very minuscule scale.
Also an EQ basically works by using phase cancellation... and since you're going to split your signal by frequency. See what I mean?
Try passing a mono signal through Align Delay; set Aligne Delay timing to samples and change the delay value of only one channel. You'll hear that latency becomes clearly audible after 2 samples (!) of delay.
So, I'm sticking to my advice: introduce latency to the least amount of signals, that'd be less delays to account for.

[spanktron]

As far as i know the latency of a signal going through a hardwear is negligible and almost zero

"Almost zero" is exactly where you're creating "weird" phase interaction. "Phase" is just time, but at a very minuscule scale.
Also an EQ basically works by using phase cancellation... and since you're going to split your signal by frequency. See what I mean?
Try passing a mono signal through Align Delay; set Aligne Delay timing to samples and change the delay value of only one channel. You'll hear that latency becomes clearly audible after 2 samples (!) of delay.
So, I'm sticking to my advice: introduce latency to the least amount of signals, that'd be less delays to account for.

Hmm while i understand what you mean i am not sure that is the right tool to check this. First of all this Plugin is a difference between channels not a phase issue on a track by itself or else any multiband processor without linear phase filters would sound catastrophic unless i am wrong.
I am really not expert in it. Just what i have seen till now
What you describe goes more into Haas effect territory the way i understand it. Tbh i have never used the Align Delay to get a feel of what it does under the hood but at first look my gut feeling was that it`s not meant for checking things like this. That said, i will try it in real life as soon as i have a chance and measure the difference of signal delay between 2 blanck cables from Out to In of the interface and two cables into an externaly comp and back. I got too curious and even if you are right, i would like to find out how much and what kind of differences happen cause i am always interested in this kind of things. I would love for you to be wrong cause it would make my life easier but if i am wrong its no big thing really as i am old enough to accept the results

I am much obliged cause your input made me think further so this alone is a win

[[jur]]

Hmm while i understand what you mean i am not sure that is the right tool to check this. First of all this Plugin is a difference between channels not a phase issue on a track by itself or else any multiband processor without linear phase filters would sound catastrophic unless i am wrong.

Maybe i wasn't very clear. I suggest this test with Align Delay just so you can see how obvious even the tiniest bit of latency can be.
How you do this? By listening to the same source twice while delaying one instance of the source. This is showing phase interaction, there's not a single doubt about this in this universe. And this is the quickest and easiest way to do it in Live (you can do it many other ways if you want to overcomplicate).
And this is one of main goal behind the design of Align Delay, btw.

That said, i will try it in real life as soon as i have a chance and measure the difference of signal delay between 2 blanck cables from Out to In of the interface and two cables into an externaly comp and back.

I really don't understand why you insist on over-complicating this Spanktron.
It really is simple:
1 - calculate your in/out through your external processor routeback latency.
2 - split you source with a linear phase frequency splitter (as said above, you can easily find a rack if you don't know how to do it).
3 - send and receive back your "wet" through your external gear.
4 - use the latency value you found in step 1 to set External Audio Effect's builtin latency compensation (or track delay or Align Delay if you're instead receiving your processed wet in another track).

Sorry, but sending out your "dry" signal is a non-sense. It will not have the same latency as your wet because it doesn't pass through any external processor gear... so you'll have to calculate and account for this latency too.

[spanktron]

Hmm while i understand what you mean i am not sure that is the right tool to check this. First of all this Plugin is a difference between channels not a phase issue on a track by itself or else any multiband processor without linear phase filters would sound catastrophic unless i am wrong.

Maybe i wasn't very clear. I suggest this test with Align Delay just so you can see how obvious even the tiniest bit of latency can be.
How you do this? By listening to the same source twice while delaying one instance of the source. This is showing phase interaction, there's not a single doubt about this in this universe. And this is the quickest and easiest way to do it in Live (you can do it many other ways if you want to overcomplicate).
And this is one of main goal behind the design of Align Delay, btw.

That said, i will try it in real life as soon as i have a chance and measure the difference of signal delay between 2 blanck cables from Out to In of the interface and two cables into an externaly comp and back.

I really don't understand why you insist on over-complicating this Spanktron.
It really is simple:
1 - calculate your in/out through your external processor routeback latency.
2 - split you source with a linear phase frequency splitter (as said above, you can easily find a rack if you don't know how to do it).
3 - send and receive back your "wet" through your external gear.
4 - use the latency value you found in step 1 to set External Audio Effect's builtin latency compensation (or track delay or Align Delay if you're instead receiving your processed wet in another track).

Sorry, but sending out your "dry" signal is a non-sense. It will not have the same latency as your wet because it doesn't pass through any external processor gear... so you'll have to calculate and account for this latency too.

Thank you for your input.
as to your „ why“ and "Sorry, but sending out your "dry" signal is a non-sense. It will not have the same latency as your wet because it doesn't pass through any external processor gear.“

Because a hardware manufacturer told me that the delay of a hardware processor of this kind will have negligible delay that will be as much as a blank cable and i simply want to put this to the test because its easy to set up and i am curious. Don`t know why you insist in me not trying it but i still will.

To the sample delay issue, i am aware that we can perceive miniscule differences. Also not in the same way fo all cases.
It will be different having a channel inside a mix delayed by 2 samples in relation to the rest and a different result delaying one channels in relation to another channel. Don`t know how to better describe it in english cause i have my limits there

All in all, i will try your recommendations when i have a calm moment cause at present i am in a completely different world where i have no time to finally finish this task

Best
S

[[jur]]

Don`t know why you insist in me not trying it but i still will.

Sorry if it sounded like I was insisting. English is not my native language either and I just wanted to provide you with the easiest solution (as you were kind of insisting on doing it another way , even though you were coming here asking for help).
Of course you're free to experiment with what pleases you.

Good luck with your other world's tasks, I hope you'll get back to making music soon

[spanktron]

Don`t know why you insist in me not trying it but i still will.

Sorry if it sounded like I was insisting. English is not my native language either and I just wanted to provide you with the easiest solution (as you were kind of insisting on doing it another way , even though you were coming here asking for help).
Of course you're free to experiment with what pleases you.

Good luck with your other world's tasks, I hope you'll get back to making music soon

Its always har to communicate through short passages of written text. Especially when things are constantly in motion.
Since i started the Thread i had some conversations here and there and one was with this hardwear developer.
So while my question did not loose my interest, it lost first priority.

I remember that every time i had to do this latency thingy i always ended a bit in frustration and seeked different solutions.

I will keep in mind your suggestions and try them as soon as i am calm and have time cause right now work has caught up and
unfortunately i did not win the lottery yet so i can`t take a break.

"Good luck with your other world's tasks, I hope you'll get back to making music soon “

Thank you very much. All the best to you too and thank you for your effort. It is much appreciated

[spanktron]

Don`t know why you insist in me not trying it but i still will.

Sorry if it sounded like I was insisting. English is not my native language either and I just wanted to provide you with the easiest solution (as you were kind of insisting on doing it another way , even though you were coming here asking for help).
Of course you're free to experiment with what pleases you.

Good luck with your other world's tasks, I hope you'll get back to making music soon

Ok so today i actually performed the test. I went in and out of the interface hardwiring two Out-Inputs with two 1 meter long 6,3mm TS cables and then another two cables through the external Hardwear saturator. I then played a relatively fast transient and send it through a roundtrip via both ways and compared the Recording.
Either my eyes are not good or i get basically sample perfect timing
So i conclude that the guy from the Company that told me „Delay will be negligible“ is trustworthy
The lower waveform in the Picture is the one through the Analog Saturator

[[jur]]

Thx for the heads up!
Analog processing has no AD/DA conversion to do so it's basically happening at the speed of electricity (almost the speed of light).
How far was it from your test signal/transient?