Macro Control Tune not working with EDrum Pad

[1AndBand]

Hi to everyone
I´m new to Ableton. So maybe i am just too dump to do it right. But i tried for 8 hours and a friend of mine, google, chat gpt and youtube couldn´t help. So...

I have an E Drum. Millenium MPS 850. Its connected via USB. My PC is connected to a Focusrite Scarlet Solo. The connection is working. The edrum is identified. Track activated. Remote not. I don´t need Remote as i can´t use anything on the edrum to control Ableton. Please correct me if i am wrong. But it doesnt matter anyway if Remote is activated or not due to my problem (i tried). Audio Driver ASIO. Latency good. Thats the setup.

Now i go to Instruments -> Drum Rack/ Simpler/ Instrument Rack .... -> and load 606 Core Kit (for example) to a MIDI Track
Now i can play the Samples with the Pads of the Edrum. Fine! But when i hit the Preview Button of the Sounds they sound different than played with the pads of the Edrum.

I figured out that the Tune Macro Control setting isnt working. A Sound played with the Preview Button is using the Tune and the same sound played while using a pad isnt using the Tone adjustment. Turning the Tune to 0 makes both ways sound the same. The Level setting under the Tone setting is working with the pads instead! i dont get it.... Settings of Classic, 1-shot, WARP, Vel>Vol doesnt matter. The problem stays the same...

Midi Tracks settings are:
From: All Ins; all Channels
Monitor: Auto
Audio to: Main

everything presetting...

I try to understand the problem. Maybe some of you have an idea?
Thanks in advance!

[[jur]]

Turning the Tune to 0 makes both ways sound the same.

Are you talking about the Snare specifically? I'm asking because this rack as 2 similar snares.

[1AndBand]

No not just the Snare. Its every Sound.
I can see the Cursor walking through the Sample Display and when i play a long Sound like a Cymbal i can see the Cursor is faster when hitting the Preview Button than hitting a Pad on the EDrum. I guess thats because the Tune pitches the Sound higher and therefore it is played faster.
Meanwhile i tried a new Installation of Ableton. But it didnt help...

[[jur]]

I guess thats because the Tune pitches the Sound higher and therefore it is played faster.

Do you mean each individual pads' Tune macro?

[1AndBand]

hm I guess its a little bit confusing because we have the Pads on the Edrum and the pads in Ableton in the Drum Rack Section.
If i hit a Pad on the Edrum the Tune setting on the Ableton Pads is not working. And yes its every Ableton Pads Tune.

[[jur]]

Mmhh, that's very very strange.
You should check the incoming midi from your e-drum with the Midi Monitor device and observe for anything unexpected (but I don't see what it could tbh).
Is it working as expected when using eg a midi keyboard?

[1AndBand]

The Midi Monitor does not show anything, when playing on the Edrum. But i have sounds from Ableton and incoming Midi. I can see incoming Midi at the Midi Track In Indicator. I have no real Midi Keyboard. When using my PC Keyboard as Midi Input the Midi Monitor shows Input as expected.

Yesterday a friend was here and wie tried to figure out the Problem. We think the EDrum is not giving all Midi Data Ableton needs. There has to be some kind of basic duration info of a sound. Like when you press a Key on a Keyboard for 2s then there has to be a Midi Data to provide this information. We think the Edrum just gives the information which Pad you hit and how strong. Thats why you cant see any info in the Midi Monitor. The information is just too short to see it. Another thing we figured out is, that you can not just use Tune but not any of the controls of the Amplitude Envelope. Attack, Sustain, Release is also not working. Which makes sense, because to have more Sustain you need some basic Sustain. And Attack just skips the info of hitting a Pad. We put the Midi Effect "Note Length" before the effect chain and then everything works. It seems that the extra note length provides the data the EDrum is not. Maybe this can be some kind of workaround. But i dont know how it is working when using plugins.

Maybe someone has a better idea?
I wonder how it is with other EDrums than the Millenium MPS 850...

[[jur]]

Maybe someone has a better idea?

While reading you I was thinking about telling you to try using... Note Length. So, no, no other idea and that's fine enough.
Midi Monitor should see your note on value, the velocity and note off; it's really weird that nothing shows up, and I doubt this is because it would be too slow to read the midi. But anyway.
Check your e-drums manual and see if you can customise the midi its sending... or just stick with the Note Length solution if that doesn't bother you too much.

[1AndBand]

Chat GPT says the Edrum sends a "note on" (start being hit) and a "note off" (end being hit) information. maybe this is just too short. but then every Edrum must have this issue?? The only thing i can customise is what midi note is sendet for each pad i hit. and this is also strange because its not like in the manual. Every Pad is exactly one octave lower than the manual says. So the Snare sends D1 (Ableton) instead of D2 (manual), Kick sends C1 instead of C2, Snare Rim E1 instead of D2 and so on.... Dont know if that has something to do with the actual problem. but maybe the midi sent is some kind of shifted and something is cut off or cant be read.... strange....

anyway. i try the note length effect and check if there are any problems with plugins.
Thanks for your help mate!

[[jur]]

So the Snare sends D1 (Ableton) instead of D2 (manual), Kick sends C1 instead of C2, Snare Rim E1 instead of D2 and so on.... Dont know if that has something to do with the actual problem. but maybe the midi sent is some kind of shifted and something is cut off or cant be read.... strange....

Your Drum Rack sounds/pads can only be triggered if the note sent corresponded to the expected note in the DR. The confusing thing is that octaves naming/numbering isn't standard: for some middle C is C3, for others it is C4. So you can just ignore this as long as the correct pad is played.

[[jur]]

Just realizing that maybe your e-drum has a Trigger/Gate option for the time of sent midi.

[1AndBand]

No unfortunately there is no such option.

[RobrechtV]

I don't have an E-drum but I played around with the 606 Core Kit and some MIDI clips to find out what's going on here.

So the amplitude and pitch envelopes in a Simpler device are classic ADSR envelopes (Attack/Decay/Sustain/Release). Of those four, Sustain is a kind of target value: the target amplitude (volume) or pitch.

The other three are time parameters that determine the length of three phases over the duration of a note: while each note is held, its amplitude/pitch first goes up (Attack phase) and then down (Decay phase) before settling on the value set by Sustain (the length of the sustain phase is determined by how long the note is held). As soon as the note is released, its amplitude/pitch then goes down (Release phase).

Now. In drum kits, the Attack and Decay parts are often not used: a drum sound's attack is usually instant, so you want it to go to the value set by Sustain straight away, skipping the A and D phases.

For that reason, Attack and Decay are set to their minimum values. For Attack, that means 0.00ms. For Decay, for some reason, Simpler's minimum value is 1.00ms. And there's your problem.

In the 606 Core Kit, the Sustain phase of the Pitch envelope is used for tuning. Normally, each note speeds through the ultra short Attack and Decay phases straight to its target Sustain value, so fast that you don't notice them. But if an incoming note is shorter than 1.00ms, it doesn't fully complete its Decay phase and therefore doesn't reach the Sustain value – in this case: the pitch set by the Tune knob!

I've tested this with a MIDI clip: as soon as I made a note shorter than 1 millisecond, it started adhering less and less to the pitch set by the Tune knob. I suspect your E-drum sends its Note On and Note Off messages very close to each other, since your drumstick only hits the pad for a very short time.

Fortunately, there's a solution. In the browser, find MIDI Effects > Note Length > Ten Milliseconds. Put the device before your 606 Core Kit and it should make sure all incoming notes from your E-drum are long enough to properly reach the tuning set in the Sustain phase of the pitch envelope.

(I realize you discovered this already but now you know why it works! )