Quad G5 + Live 5

[tylast]

They're already available via Hypersonic & Sager isn't too far behind. But, I'm gonna wait till the Live Update that has a multi-threaded audio engine.

[MarkH]

The only reaosn Live isn't multi-threaded is Ableton is a small company and they don't have the time or resource to do this for v4 or v5. With a product lifecycle of about 12 months for every version of Live, they have to work hard to add all the most requested features first - features that will result in more direct sales. Support for multi-cpu becomes more demanding as they sell more units, but it's not like the whole world has ditched Logic, PT, Cubase, DP, etc. and moved to Live. As the user base grows Ableton will eventually see multi CPU as a priority. Especially given that every computer company will adopt dual core (or dual, dual core) as their mainstream products. Eventually Ableton will adapt but I would say we're lucky if we see it in Live 6 which could very well be released June of 2006, based on Ableton's product release cycles in the past.

[Leftofsix]

Taking this thread slightly off topic again but does anyone know if Reason 3 takes advantage of multiple CPUs? I've decided to go with Logic Pro 7 and already have Live 4 and 5. I used Reason a few years ago and may consider adding it to my rig if it supports multiple CPUs.

Thanks again,
Colin

[MarkH]

Taking this thread slightly off topic again but does anyone know if Reason 3 takes advantage of multiple CPUs? I've decided to go with Logic Pro 7 and already have Live 4 and 5. I used Reason a few years ago and may consider adding it to my rig if it supports multiple CPUs.

Thanks again,
Colin

Reason 3 only uses one CPU for the audio engine.

[pgwalsh]

[quote="henry ford"]ya , in terms of processing actual audio it does have to be programmed.

the gui can take advantage of dual processors etc. robert henke himself commented on this somewhere....[/quote]

Just so we're all on the same page, we're talking about Multi-Processor systems (two or more sockets) and not dual core systems (two core's on one processor). Live doesn't take advantage of Multi-Processors, but it will take advantage of dual core.

The ideal setup would be support for Multi-Processors with mulit-cores. AMD announced yesterday that it'll be shipping 3/4 core systems in 2007. Imagine an Apple or MS machine with two processors with 8 cores total.. You really have a wonderful amount of power for all your plugins..

[MarkH]

Just so we're all on the same page, we're talking about Multi-Processor systems (two or more sockets) and not dual core systems (two core's on one processor). Live doesn't take advantage of Multi-Processors, but it will take advantage of dual core.

Wrong. Live's audio engine uses ONE processor whether you have a dual CPU or dual CORE machine. This has already been proven time and time again. Until Live is rewritten the audio engine will not benefit from the second cpu or a dual core cpu. The GUI is so minor it's silly to try and justify dedicating a seperate processor for this. Go ask the users who upgraded to Pro Tools 7 what they think of their new multi-threaded app. Sessions that pushed their RTAS plugins to 90% CPU usage have now dropped down to 45%.

[gomi]

pro tools le is single processer as well..

PT supports multiple processors in version 7

Nice!

not only does it support them, it allows you to tell it how much of each
processor to use up...

protools on a quad mac is going to be amazing when the new pci HD cards
are out.

[majestic]

Go ask the users who upgraded to Pro Tools 7 what they think of their new multi-threaded app.

Yeah, on a G5 2 GHz x 2 running PT MP 7, someone is getting 96 tracks and 480 plugins!

http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php? ... t=1#913420

[pgwalsh]

Wrong. Live's audio engine uses ONE processor whether you have a dual CPU or dual CORE machine. This has already been proven time and time again. Until Live is rewritten the audio engine will not benefit from the second cpu or a dual core cpu. The GUI is so minor it's silly to try and justify dedicating a seperate processor for this. Go ask the users who upgraded to Pro Tools 7 what they think of their new multi-threaded app. Sessions that pushed their RTAS plugins to 90% CPU usage have now dropped down to 45%.

The OS sees these systems as one processor and assigns the threads accordingly. This means applications can benefit from dual cores regardless if they're written or optimized for it or not. They will not benefit from mulit-processors unless they're specifically written for it.

Here's two articles proving my piont. One is from DevX and the other is from AnandTech.
http://www.devx.com/amd/Article/29117
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/sh ... i=2377&p=2

[pgwalsh]

Dual-core refers to a CPU that includes two complete execution cores per physical processor. It combines two processors and their caches and cache controllers onto a single integrated circuit (silicon chip). It is basically two processors, in most cases, residing reside side-by-side on the same die.
Dual-processor, Dual-core, and Multi-core: Keeping it straight
Dual-processor (DP) systems are those that contains two separate physical computer processors in the same chassis. In dual-processor systems, the two processors can either be located on the same motherboard or on separate boards. In a dual-core configuration, an integrated circuit (IC) contains two complete computer processors. Usually, the two identical processors are manufactured so they reside side-by-side on the same die, each with its own path to the system front-side bus. Multi-core is somewhat of an expansion to dual-core technology and allows for more than two separate processors.

Taking Advantage of Dual-core Technology
A dual-core processor has many advantages especially for those looking to boost their system's multitasking computing power. Dual-core processors provide two complete execution cores instead of one, each with an independent interface to the frontside bus. Since each core has its own cache, the operating system has sufficient resources to handle intensive tasks in parallel, which provides a noticeable improvement to multitasking.

Complete optimization for the dual-core processor requires both the operating system and applications running on the computer to support a technology called thread-level parallelism, or TLP. Thread-level parallelism is the part of the OS or application that runs multiple threads simultaneously, where threads refer to the part of a program that can execute independently of other parts.
Key Terms To Understanding Dual-core
dual-core
Dual-core refers to a CPU that includes two complete execution cores per physical processor.

CPU
Abbreviation of central processing unit, and pronounced as separate letters. The CPU is the brains of the computer. Sometimes referred to simply as the processor or central processor, the CPU is where most calculations take place.

processor
Short for microprocessor or CPU.

integrated circuit
Another name for a chip, an integrated circuit (IC) is a small electronic device made out of a semiconductor material.

Related Webopedia Categories:
Microprocessors

Even without a multithread-enabled application, you will still see benefits of dual-core processors if you are running an OS that supports TLP. For example, if you have Microsoft Windows XP (which supports multithreading), you could have your Internet browser open along with a virus scanner running in the background, while using Windows Media Player to stream your favorite radio station and the dual-core processor will handle the multiple threads of these programs running simultaneously with an increase in performance and efficiency.

Today Windows XP and hundreds of applications already support multithread technology, especially applications that are used for editing and creating music files, videos and graphics because types of programs need to perform operations in parallel. As dual-core technology becomes more common in homes and the workplace, you can expect to see more applications support thread-level parallelism.

Intel & AMD Dual-core Desktop Processors
The Intel Pentium Processor Extreme Edition 840 running at 3.2 GHz and Intel 955X Express Chipsets are being built into computers that are now entering the market. This is Intel's first desktop dual-core product supporting Hyper-Threading Technology. Processor features include the following:

Hyper-Threading Technology: Enables you to run multiple demanding applications at the same time.
Intel Extended Memory 64 Technology: Provides flexibility for future applications that support both 32-bit and 64-bit computing.
Dual-Core: Two physical cores in one processor support better system responsiveness and multi-tasking capability than a comparable single core processor. [Source: Intel Dual-core Desktop Processor]
AMD also announced its line of desktop dual-core processors, the AMD Athlon 64 X2 processor family. The initial model numbers in the new family include the 4200+, 4400+, 4600+ and 4800+ (2.2GHz to 2.4GHz).The processors are based on AMD64 technology and are compatible with the existing base of x86 software, whether single-threaded or multithreaded. Software applications will be able to support AMD64 dual-core processors with a simple BIOS upgrade and no substantial code changes. [Source: AMD Dual-core Desktop Processor]

[AdamJay]

Thanks for the lesson in terms and all, but that still doesn't mean Live uses both cores for its audio engine. Because quite simply it does not.

Now, the new Dual Core G5's will give Live marginally better performance at same clock speeds of the old regular Dual CPU G5's. but the 1MB L2 cache has alot to do with that.

Live does NOT utilize a 2nd core, processor, cpu, or whatever else you want to call it for the audio engine.

No matter what you wish to copy and paste from google into this forum can change that simple fact. The audio engine is not written to utilize multi-threads, and thats the inherent reason it doesn't use a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th core.
Sorry, but welcome to the forum!

[pgwalsh]

Thanks for the lesson in terms and all, but that still doesn't mean Live uses both cores for its audio engine. Because quite simply it does not.

Now, the new Dual Core G5's will give Live marginally better performance at same clock speeds of the old regular Dual CPU G5's. but the 1MB L2 cache has alot to do with that.

Live does NOT utilize a 2nd core, processor, cpu, or whatever else you want to call it for the audio engine.

No matter what you wish to copy and paste from google into this forum can change that simple fact. The audio engine is not written to utilize multi-threads, and thats the inherent reason it doesn't use a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th core.
Sorry, but welcome to the forum!

Well it's sad that it's not multithreaded.
How do you know it's not? Are you on the development team or is this yours and others observation?

If it truely isn't they should really work on it, they'll get a lot more peformance from newer machines.

[majestic]

Live does NOT utilize a 2nd core, processor, cpu, or whatever else you want to call it for the audio engine.

Yep unfortunately - and if it used both processors in the dualcore, you'd see better results for the dualcore G5 machines in AJ's test. Instead, the results for dualcore G5s are matching their dual-processor equivalents at similar clock speeds.

Hopefully multiprocessor support is the main new feature that the Abes are working on for Live 6...!

[pgwalsh]

Live does NOT utilize a 2nd core, processor, cpu, or whatever else you want to call it for the audio engine.

Yep unfortunately - and if it used both processors in the dualcore, you'd see better results for the dualcore G5 machines in AJ's test. Instead, the results for dualcore G5s are matching their dual-processor equivalents at similar clock speeds.

Hopefully multiprocessor support is the main new feature that the Abes are working on for Live 6...!

Ok.. Well know that I have been corrected about Live's multithreadedness, here's an interesting developers article on the path to enlightenment. I'm under the impression they're developing in C or C++ at Ableton, so perhaps they'll read it.

http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2 ... essor.html

[AdamJay]

Well it's sad that it's not multithreaded.
How do you know it's not? Are you on the development team or is this yours and others observation?

If it truely isn't they should really work on it, they'll get a lot more peformance from newer machines.

It has been said by the developers many times on this very forum that it is not multithreaded. And i would imagine that they are working on it as it is a very common feature request, at least so i have heard.

Its a bummer, yes, but with the release of versions 4 and 5, the Live.app on MacOS saw CPU optimizations that brought the CPU usage down, and without multi-threading. This shows Ableton does care about performance, but i imagine with the impending MacIntel switch, Windows Vista, and other evolutions of the industry they are looking at the larger picture. I have no doubt in my own mind that a multi-threaded audio engine will come one day. Who knows it could be v. 5.5, v.6, or v.7. I won't stop making and recording music waiting on it though.

You should know that this topic has been discussed to great length on this very forum. It is perhaps one of the top 5 topics in terms of lengthy discussions and number of posts with regards to it. Spend some time sifting through what has already been said and i think you will learn alot of this has already been said, and alot else has been said that you may be interested in.