the mp3 issue

normal0c · Post by **normal0c** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:35 pm

I have read a lot of posts on the issue of MP3 support in Live. It seems that a lot of people are bringing up the point that it would take too much CPU power to decode MP3's on the fly. My question is, why would you have to decode them on the fly? Live could decode the MP3 when it is loaded into the program, creating a temporary WAV file for playback/processing. The WAV would be deleted from the disk when you exit the program (or close the ALS file).

MP3 support would be great for me (and other laptop DJ's), because I have over 5000 MP3's that I want at my fingertips during a DJ set. Choosing 20 songs to decode to WAV before the set is not an option!

eamoon · Post by **eamoon** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:28 pm

So you'd prefer to wait for 5000+ mp3s to be converted to temporary WAV files each time Live starts? Never mind the fact that they'd take about 300 gigabytes of disk space (assuming each is 6 minutes long...)

MP3 support would be nice, but I think the only way it could work is to decode them in realtime.

esoterica · Post by **esoterica** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:57 pm

eamoon wrote:So you'd prefer to wait for 5000+ mp3s to be converted to temporary WAV files each time Live starts? Never mind the fact that they'd take about 300 gigabytes of disk space (assuming each is 6 minutes long...)

MP3 support would be nice, but I think the only way it could work is to decode them in realtime.

I agree. When I did tests on an old 600Mhz iBook, iTunes could convert an MP3 to AIFF uncompressed in over 20X realtime, which included writing out to disk. This to me is an extremely minimal performance hit compared to the benefits provided.

As I've pontificated before, why doesn't Live just use QuickTime as its media handler? That way the only thing that would be required to handle a specific media type in Live would be to have a QuickTime codec for it, and Ableton would only have to write one file handler. I mean, universal media handling is half the reason for QuickTime's existance.

eamoon · Post by **eamoon** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:20 pm

yeah, but Live needs to be able to jump around in an audio file at will. QuickTime is designed for more or less linear playback -- sure, you can seek around in a file, but in general it's oriented towards a single "playback head." Live's timestretching algorithms probably wouldn't cope too well with that.

okay, enough backseat programming for a lovely Sunday afternoon. :)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:50 pm

to me it just seems like the mp3 thing is too much of a hassle to please too few of people, and the Ableton krew should keep at other things that would really take it to another level (midi, vstis, overdub/resample) instead of working on possibly complicated things that would only help a few, and to which there are pleny of other programs to use as a converter solution.

2cent

esoterica · Post by **esoterica** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:39 am

eamoon wrote:yeah, but Live needs to be able to jump around in an audio file at will. QuickTime is designed for more or less linear playback -- sure, you can seek around in a file, but in general it's oriented towards a single "playback head." Live's timestretching algorithms probably wouldn't cope too well with that.

Can you please elaborate on how timestretching would benefit from multiple playback heads? Seems that it's still linear input data. If you're talking about being able to play multiple clips from the same file (obviously very useful) this is shown to not be a problem in such applications as Final Cut Pro, which I believe exclusively uses QuickTime for its file handling...

esoterica · Post by **esoterica** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:47 am

Anonymous wrote:there are pleny of other programs to use as a converter solution.

The problem is that converters are simply not a solution when you need to have access to any track on-the-fly. It's unrealistic (at best) to sit and wait for each file to convert during the middle of a set. And I think the sheer number of threads requesting MP3 support disagrees with your asessment that better file format support is wanted by relatively few Live users.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:36 pm

wrong. two or three threads by as many people don't constitute much of in my book. Lets get 100% honest here--if you purchased all that music you'd have it in .wav and audio cd format. If you converted it to .mp3, you still already have the unconverted stuff. If you downloaded other people's creative and artistic efforts for FREE without them getting any compensation for their work you'd have a bunch of .mp3's you can't use in Live. I say that is a good built in artist protection feature in Live. I know there are lots of people using live for lots of things, but my sense is that its more on the musician side of things than a dj program, and real instruments don't need mp3 support. if there was really all that much support for mp3 in live, the few mp3 threads would have dozens of supportive replies, not a bunch of technical banter and hesitancy. lets let Live continue to push the boundaries and do things nothing else can do, not regressing and transforming into every other DAW.

2cent

esoterica · Post by **esoterica** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:36 pm

Anonymous wrote:wrong. two or three threads by as many people don't constitute much of in my book.

Do a search on MP3 and tell me how many requests you find. Approximately as many as request VSTi.

Anonymous wrote:Lets get 100% honest here--if you purchased all that music you'd have it in .wav and audio cd format.

Nope, and if you were a DJ you'd know that plenty of music is only available on vinyl. Next...

Anonymous wrote:If you converted it to .mp3, you still already have the unconverted stuff.

Let's see, I have 30GB of MP3 files that I want to have available at all times. Uncompressed, that would be around 225GB. Not gonna fit on a notebook computer's hard disk.

Anonymous wrote:If you downloaded other people's creative and artistic efforts for FREE without them getting any compensation for their work you'd have a bunch of .mp3's you can't use in Live. I say that is a good built in artist protection feature in Live.

The fact that MP3 files are commonly pirated is a side effect of MP3 being a useful compression format, and that they are pirated in no way diminishes MP3's usefulness. But in fact, this is exactly why I've been advocating that Ableton should use QuickTime -- that way other compression formats (including lossless compression and AAC) can be inherently supported.

Anonymous wrote:I know there are lots of people using live for lots of things, but my sense is that its more on the musician side of things than a dj program, and real instruments don't need mp3 support. if there was really all that much support for mp3 in live, the few mp3 threads would have dozens of supportive replies, not a bunch of technical banter and hesitancy.

The "banter" is almost entirely in support of MP3s, with a few dissents complaining about sound quality from those who don't realize that in almost any live venue that a good quality MP3 will be indistinguishable from the original file.

Anonymous wrote:lets let Live continue to push the boundaries and do things nothing else can do, not regressing and transforming into every other DAW.

This is your most ridiculous statement yet. There's a reason it's called Live -- that it's DAW software that can readily be used for live performances. The realtime stretching, looping, pitch-shifting, etc. is absolutely perfect for DJing, and is pushing the limits of software into realms where nothing else exists. I don't understand why you're advocating hobbling Live while attempting to camouflage this by claiming that adding functionality (that in no way takes away from any of Live's other capabilities) is somehow "regressing".

Just because I don't need VSTi support right now doesn't mean I'm telling Ableton to not put it in, because I recognize a legitimate need for VSTi. Conversely, your blind determination for Ableton to add only the features you want seems a tad childish.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:32 pm

whatever dude, you clearly haven't been on the forums long if you think there is more of a groundswell for mp3s than vstis. and you might want to read up a bit on operating an serious audio machine, having your audio files on your slow internal laptop drive (which is the same drive your applications are on) seriously curtails ther performance. So a big ol firewire drive is a good idea for performance and you can put all your lowsy .mp3s there. yeah, i actually have heard of vinyl--just because its on vinyl you can only convert it to mp3--obviously not. If you were serious about converting your own personal vinyl yourself, I really doubt you would be satisfied to go straight to .mp3. I've transfered a lot of my vinyl and have done wonders for the sound inside Sonar with various plugins. so again, you should have the wave file anyway. The dj's I've read about that transfer vinyl to digital all seem to go straigh to .wavs--one album on one cd-r, as they often use cd turntables. Ableton will do what is best for the program I'm sure, so if .mp3 is a feasible thing I'm sure you'll get it someday and we can all live in compressed harmony.

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:10 pm

Are you in the same crowd who does not want altivec support for os x?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:43 pm

no i use a pc so i can actually have track and effect counts in the double digits! Maybe when you learn how to most effectively use Live (use a pc and external audio drive), then learn to play instruments, this whole mp3 thing will seem like a bad dream.

esoterica · Post by **esoterica** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:02 am

Anonymous wrote:no i use a pc so i can actually have track and effect counts in the double digits! Maybe when you learn how to most effectively use Live (use a pc and external audio drive), then learn to play instruments, this whole mp3 thing will seem like a bad dream.

Troll.

Alex Reynolds · Post by **Alex Reynolds** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:39 am

This troll is an asshole. Pay him no attention, folks.

-Alex

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:55 am

no, alex, you are actually the asshole, always jumping into threads to diss someone or spread some negativity--why don't you go make some of that crappy noise you call music...

the mp3 issue

the mp3 issue

Re: the mp3 issue

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