Ableton abandoning the G5 ?

psi · Post by **psi** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:27 pm

I recently purchase an apple G5 computer and it is noticeable that Live ( 5.02 ) is at best pathetic when running more than a couple of decent software synths..There is no dual core ( processor ) support and no optimisation for the G5. As well as live 5 being extremely inefficient this just compounds the problem. My question is this : will Ableton address these issues or are you waiting for the intel chips to come along thus abandoning the G5 user base ?
When you see logic 7 running several high powered soft synths with tons of headroom to spare it seems like the only true option to take advantage of the machine. I have supported Ableton from day one but I am surprised that they have given no reassurances to the mac community (even on the G4 they have complained about Altivec. ) It would be good to hear a firm commitment from the company towards its mac users because it is in real danger of losing some of its customer base.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:45 pm

psi wrote:I recently purchase an apple G5 computer and it is noticeable that Live ( 5.02 ) is at best pathetic when running more than a couple of decent software synths..There is no dual core ( processor ) support and no optimisation for the G5. As well as live 5 being extremely inefficient this just compounds the problem. My question is this : will Ableton address these issues or are you waiting for the intel chips to come along thus abandoning the G5 user base ?

from posts I have seen from Robert & other team members I would guess that IBM chipset and altivec are not going to receive extra development.

The official reasons for lack of optimisation have been that the codebase is currently very nearly the same for both PC and Mac, with no optimisations for either. Optimising would mean splitting the codebase.
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=10

As a PC user I guess this means they didn't even have SSE optimisation in there, so I can only imagine what the PC version with SSE3 optimisation would be like. My Centrino 2.0 generally runs about 10 tracks of VSTi at less than 50% cpu

With g5 now being a chip on its way out it seems unlikely that Live6 will have any Dev time allocated to it if it hadn't any before.

another vaguely related 'bobby boy' post
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 5&start=34

just my opinion.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:03 pm

To me that doesn't make sense. They supported mac os 9 for at least 3 years after osx arrived. And ancient versions of windows. G5's are far from obsolete machines.
They may not perform so well with Live. But they are still a beast to work with in Tiger. And they have the potential to kick ass with Live as well.
If you look at how long a g3 lasts. Imagine how long the g5 will still be around.

psi · Post by **psi** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:25 pm

So now I have to either change platform ( and computer ) , wait for Apple Intel or change sequencer ( logic or cubase ) to remedy the situation..thanks Abes that's just great !
Perhaps Ableton will ignore this thread ( like every other serious issue here ) and hope it goes away !

jasefos · Post by **jasefos** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:35 pm

psi wrote:So now I have to either change platform ( and computer ) , wait for Apple Intel or change sequencer ( logic or cubase ) to remedy the situation..thanks Abes that's just great !
Perhaps Ableton will ignore this thread ( like every other serious issue here ) and hope it goes away !

Considering using both platforms (MAcOSX and Windows XP) ?

Both have their merits.

Then you can chop and change at will. Tthere are many applications/plugins which are only available on one platform or the other OR run better on one platform or the other. Backing one horse is unwise.

Just a thought (although not a popular one).

The road ahead for Windows users also looks quite rocky with Windows Vista on the horizon.

Just remember what works today on hardware you using today will also work for the next 5 or so years (provided you can keep the platform maintained).

Cheers

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:59 pm

psi wrote:So now I have to either change platform ( and computer ) , wait for Apple Intel or change sequencer ( logic or cubase ) to remedy the situation..thanks Abes that's just great !
Perhaps Ableton will ignore this thread ( like every other serious issue here ) and hope it goes away !

did you even read hoffman2ks post? They supported os9 for AGES, they'll do that with OSX as well, no doubt.

psi · Post by **psi** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:24 pm

"no doubt ??????? "

thats what this is all about.. why should we have to rely on conjecture and guesswork and ill informed assumptions ?

Ableton should produce a mission statement to all their users and state categorically what they will and will not be doing now and in the future ( with respect to support of platforms operating systems and processors ).
We are investing in Ableton and we deserve to know whether our setups will be supported ( or not ).

musick · Post by **musick** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:34 pm

It will be almost impossible for Ableton *not* to support more CPU's in the future. When evey Mac has 4 cores or more (will be in 1 or 2 years) and also Wintel systems are 'multi core' by default the performance loss will be way to big.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:10 pm

some odd replies in here.

the will obviously support OSX on the IBM chips for a long time yet.

the key parent question was will the g5 OSX version receive extra development to improve performance, that is a very different thing.

Sure they will support the old chips, because they didn't code for Altivec in the first place ... so they don't have to un-code for it.

what the parent post asked is "will they now add code for altivec, right when it is being phased out ?"

and my personal opinion is:
"if they haven't already done it - why would they do it now at the end of the G-era !"

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:35 pm

Robert Henke has a G5 himself, as far as I recall. Your setup is supported, and some people are (successfully) making music with it. Don't see what the problem is. I've only recently upgraded from a G3 iBook to a G4 iBook and well, I can get stuff done. Sergeant Pepper, 4-track, yadayada.

Cone · Post by **Cone** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:05 pm

If you refer to using AltiVec / Velocity Engine as the "optimization for G5", then the way I understand it you don't need to and you should not develop directly for AltiVec at this point anyway. According to Apple docs you should use the Accelerate frameworks.

From Apple's "AltiVec/SSE Migration Guide":
"The advantage of using these frameworks is that the hardware dependencies are abstracted away by highly optimized library code that will be maintained not only for PowerPC and Apple’s initial Intel processors, but also for future processors. [...] Developers who have already written AltiVec code should consider adopting the Accelerate frameworks, instead of porting to SSE."

I suppose that the vDSP library would cover the most things that are needed in an application like Live, but maybe using that would require splitting the code base anyway, as it isn't available in Windows. At least for optimizing the Mac version that would be a solution for both PowerPC and Intel Macs. The PowerPC installed base of Macs is big enough to keep supporting it for a considerable amount of time.

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:47 pm

ha anyone tried calling or emailing support and asking them if they are working on performance?

I've even considered pretending to be a small magazine looking for an interview to get some info out of those guys cause they certainly don't give any in the forums.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:53 pm

Ableton are quite easy to communicate with compared to other German music software companies...

(SUCH AS NATIVE INSTRUMENTS!!!!!)

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:02 pm

when all you mac guys get your inteliBooks it will become a non-issue.
think-secret reckons January. How long can you wait for revisionB?
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0511intelibook.html

the performance I get on an intel chip (centrino/dothan 2.0) is totally fine by me. not had any complaints at all and I am a kind of "3 different send reverbs is not that many" kind of guy. IE I use a lot of soft synths and effects.

the new ibooks will have Yonah in them and be faster than what I've got, so it's a case of trading up I think.

I know I am already weighing up my excuses for having two laptops

in a slightly separate issue .. this quote from another think secret article reads just crazy to me

Apple dropped a second build of Mac OS X 10.4.4 on developers' laps this weekend
Build 8G9 adds about two dozen fixes since build 8G7, mostly related to Bluetooth and the MS DOS filesystem.

MSDOS !!!

MSDOS

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:05 pm

hoffman2k wrote:To me that doesn't make sense. They supported mac os 9 for at least 3 years after osx arrived.

4 years to be exact.,

Apple didn't even support OS9 for its own iApplications that long.
Hell, Ableton developed their software for OS9 longer than Apple did!

Ableton abandoning the G5 ?

Ableton abandoning the G5 ?

Re: Ableton abandoning the G5 ?