Midi record timing still not right in 5.0.3b4

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murphf
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Post by murphf » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:52 am

Alex wrote:LesC, icedsushi,

In the other thread I tried to explain why this is not possible for the audible signal coming out of a armed MIDI track with monitoring set to "In" or "Auto" while the recording is running.
Is this also understandable so far?
No, this is not understandable to me. Why couldn't a monitored track behave like an unmonitored one?

If monitored tracks would behave like unmonitored ones the problem would be solved.

Nod
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Post by Nod » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:07 am

Alex wrote:Hi folks,

just as a short note we found a bug concerning MIDI recording that could explain the problems some users have. As I guessed it depends a bit on the scenario you use to record MIDI. I will explain it a bit later.

regards,
/Alex
Thanks Alex - good to know you guys are proactively looking into this AND keeping us informed.

murphf
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Post by murphf » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:07 am

bensuthers wrote:um...alex...I think the assumption that you try and play the notes ahead of the beat so the sound is in time might be wrong.....
I have to agree. I use " audio direct monitoring" through my soundcard while playing hardware synths. So I hear no latency when I play and record the part - and no latency when I play a midi part that I recorded on a track set to monitoring "off".

But when I record to a track with monitoring enabled there is latency when I play the track (clip).

The weird thing is: all midi goes through Ableton. That is to say, the midi that reaches the hardware synth when I record goes - I presume - through the track that has monitoring enabled *and reaches the synth without latency*??!! How is that possible?

(To clarify: no midi will reach the synth if i don't arm a track and set it to monitor. There is no direct midi connection from my keyboard to the synth.)

This seems to imply that there is no intrinsic latency involved in the way that midi is handeld by Ableton, except when it records it to a monitoring eneable track.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:43 am

Alex wrote:Hi folks,

just as a short note we found a bug concerning MIDI recording that could explain the problems some users have. As I guessed it depends a bit on the scenario you use to record MIDI. I will explain it a bit later.

regards,
/Alex
Cool - hope this sorts this out.

djsynchro
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Post by djsynchro » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:30 pm

Dear Alex,

First of all, thank you all at Ableton for making such a great and different piece of software. And I think you're doing the right thing talking to and listening to your users, even though some of them can be quite difficult to please... :wink:

bensuthers wrote:um...alex...I think the assumption that you try and play the notes ahead of the beat so the sound is in time might be wrong....
that's my 2c.
I think so too. Because when you play a rhythmic part not only do you hear the sound, but there is also tactile feedback from pressing the keys or drumpads.

With a short audio delay I think it is more likely you would then experience what is known as "grace notes" or "flams" : Two notes played overlapping. In musical notation they are in fact on the same beat, with a tiny note before the normal note indicating that you play two notes "on top" of each other. Sort of the equivalent of using a couple of ms of audio delay to "fatten" a sound.

The Nijmegen Institute for Cognition and Information
http://www.nici.kun.nl/mmm/projects/domain7.html
Has links on the subject of Grace notes that may be interesting for the techies.

Quote: " A grace note is a musical ornament, that is, a short note played just before a main one. In the musical score the duration of these notes is not indicated, their actual length is left to convention and the performer. They are not part of the metrical hierarchy, they are overlaid on the rhythmical structure, as one would expect of an ornament."

And when I play music late at night with the sound turned down so I don't disturb the neighbours, the sound of the keys pressed on my keyboard is louder than the sound coming from the speakers.

To wrap it up: I think you would play right on the beat and experience your playing as such, even if the sound from the speakers had a slight delay.

Secondly I would like to point out that a timing delay of 13ms (which is the total latency on my system at 128 samples) almost equals a 16th note at a tempo of 180 BPM! It's easy to see that a little bit of human timing error or a little bit of "playing behind the beat" can easily lead to notes ending up in the wrong place, even if you quantise afterwards.

In fact, this is what has been happening to me all the time. I always quantise everything (I like it that way) and I have noticed with Live the notes quite often end up in the wrong place and I have to manually move them. With Logic (which I used for 8 years until I discovered Live) I never really had this problem.

I had been wondering why Live is so "unforgiving" quantising recorded Midi.
After reading this thread first I did some testing with record quantise off. And I have to agree with what other people are saying, that recorded Midi does not play back the way it was played.

Hope that is helpful, sorry for the lenghty post. Always looking forward to the next version!

:D

Alex
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Post by Alex » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:55 pm

Hi bensuther and others :)
um...alex...I think the assumption that you try and play the notes ahead of the beat so the sound is in time might be wrong...
I would say it it is not wrong but very difficult. Maybe a church organist are able to do this :)
When playing a more complex or improvised part you just play in time and ignore the slight delay before you hear the sound.
So you ignore the delay you hear but still want to hear the monitored signal to get sure that what you play is right beside the delay?

regards,
/Alex

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:15 pm

i'm a little confused here.
playing ahead of the beat in order that the recorded midi will be in time with the audio etc? I've never come across that - back in cubase vst You could just work out what the difference would be (before pdc) & enter that value so that whilst you monitored one could just play in time with the beat (as most humans would do I believe - though I have no hard statistical evidence as to h
non-human players) & then the recorded midi file would also playback in time (as you had manually made the correction to the playback timing).
I was under the impression that PDC automagically did all that for one, as it does in logic, tracktion etc.
I hope i'm not appearing rude or sarky here, maybe there's a language barrier thing going on - but just as it seems the point is being grasped a post comes along that leaves me fearing that this whole issue just is not being understood by the abes.
I hope i'm incorrect in that feeling.

iain.morland
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Post by iain.morland » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:21 pm

Thanks for the update Alex, and I do hope this is all resolved amicably.

I love the interface and 'feel' of Live, so that's what makes it all the more upsetting to think that Logic (which I have grown to hate!) seems to offer tighter MIDI recording. I hope the comments by other users show that we're concerned to get this issue fixed because we believe you have a great product that we want to make perfect, not just that we're being nit-picking.
I would say it it is not wrong but very difficult. Maybe a church organist are able to do this
I do take issue with your point about manually compensating for the delay whilst playing. I agree with one of the earlier posters that this could of course be easily done if you were just tapping keys to create a drum or bass pattern in time with a loop. But many styles of music and playing are more subtle - e.g. syncopated jazz.
So you ignore the delay you hear but still want to hear the monitored signal to get sure that what you play is right beside the delay?
Now I know that playing any VSTi requires a degree of compensation by the user because unlike an acoustic instrument, there's always a delay of some milliseconds, depending on the buffer and sample rate.

But I think the particular problem here is that the delay is changing depending on the VSTi and the other plugins loaded (if I understand correctly, it's that delay in addition to the overall buffer delay). That would be tricky for even the most adept synth player to mentally or manually compensate for.

Additionally, as has been stressed by the other posts, the point is that the delay is being recorded into the MIDI track itself - it's not merely a playback issue. This is, I think, the clincher that turns it from a mere irritation to a serious inconvenience.

Sorry to go on, but I feel this is important. :P

supster
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Post by supster » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:37 pm

what you hear from the recorded clip should never be different than what you played in against the beat.

whether you recorded monitor on or not.

this is all people want
.
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Alex
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Post by Alex » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:54 pm

Additionally, as has been stressed by the other posts, the point is that the delay is being recorded into the MIDI track itself - it's not merely a playback issue. This is, I think, the clincher that turns it from a mere irritation to a serious inconvenience.
Ok, let us assume the MIDI data is recorded like coming in when monitoring the signal. Then there are 2 ways of using it:


1) You are able to compensate it manually by playing. This means you get the output of the VSti in sync during the recording and it stays in sync when playing the recorded clip afterwards.


2) You are not able to or do not want to get the output of the VSTi in sync during the record. Then also the final recorded clip will be out of sync too.
So again if you do this, how would you sync to the output of Live?
if you do not use the output of the VSTi to sync, you probably sync the tapping on your fingers on the MIDI keyboard to the output of Live.
And for this you could set monitoring to "Off".




So there are two scenarios how people could record MIDI with monitoring set to "in" or "Auto". So my question is again why you would like to use scenario 2? The only reason I can think of is that you want to hear any kind of audible feedback from your VSTi during the recording. Because unless to an audio recording it is not possible to make direct-monitoring.




what you hear from the recorded clip should never be different than what you played in against the beat.
whether you recorded monitor on or not.
So this would mean you would never use scenario 2? You do not get it in sync during the recording so the final clip would be not in sync too.



regards,
/Alex

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:49 pm

Nod wrote:
Alex wrote:Hi Nod,

Ok I agree if that is true it would indicate that the MIDI data is not recorded correctly. I will try to check this too.

regards,
/Alex
Cheers mate - appreciated 8)
Alex,

At this point in the thread I thought you understood why we need to use scenario 2. Now I'm not so sure again.

Do you understand why we want to monitor a soft synth while we're playing it and have the recorded clip on the same track be correct?

You also said that you discovered a bug a few times and it seems to be going back and forth whether there is a bug or not (since ver4?)...

At the very least....by the small small chance it is this way by design (and not a bug that the audio latency is added to the midi latency) that monitoring is always supposed to be OFF in all scenarios (even with softsynths!), don't you think this (and recording with a 2nd track with monitor OFF technique) should have been stated in the manual? :wink:

Alex
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Post by Alex » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:01 pm

Do you understand why we want to monitor a soft synth while we're playing it and have the recording be correct?
But still the question what is "correct" in this case? :)
If it records the MIDI like it comes in it should play the MIDI in the same way, that is for sure. But this also means if you not get it in sync while recording it it also not in sync during play.


However, meanwhile we internally fixed 2 bugs. The one that the audio input latency is used for monitoring "Off" compensation by mistake the other that recordings with monitoring "In" or "Auto" can be delayed when PDC is enabled and Plug-ins are used.

We will provide a new beta very soon so everybody should firstly check then if it makes a difference.

regards,
/Alex

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:12 pm

Alex wrote:If it records the MIDI like it comes in it should play the MIDI in the same way, that is for sure. But this also means if you not get it in sync while recording it it also not in sync during play.
I'd personally prefer that than the current situation which is in sync whilst recording & not on playback.
Alex wrote: However, meanwhile we internally fixed 2 bugs. The one that the audio input latency is used for monitoring "Off" compensation by mistake the other that recordings with monitoring "In" or "Auto" can be delayed when PDC is enabled and Plug-ins are used.
That sounds promising :D

Alex
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Post by Alex » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:58 pm

Hi folks,

there is a new beta available: http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30728


Alex wrote:
If it records the MIDI like it comes in it should play the MIDI in the same way, that is for sure. But this also means if you not get it in sync while recording it it also not in sync during play.
I'd personally prefer that than the current situation which is in sync whilst recording & not on playback.
I totally agree.

regards,
/Alex

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:15 pm

It's been disturbingly quiet here for a few hours....*tick tok tick tok*...;)

Ok, I don't want to speak too soon my first impressions since I'm the first one to comment...

....but just within the first few minutes of using it, this instantly "feels" better! :D :D

Oddly enough, I think the midi clips I record into a single track a with monitoring set to IN seem even more accurate than the ones I record simultaneously on a second track recorded simultaneously set to OFF. The ones with monitoring OFF are just a tad earlier than the ones set to IN (maybe a tiny amount earlier compared to the mentronome than the actual performance was). Chris J and I had discussed this before...that somehow OFF recorded clips can get recorded earlier than the performance the more that high latency plugs are added to the set. Even with this beta you will notice the monitor OFF clips are a hair earlier than monitor IN. I can't guess why that is...but interesting to note that there still is a difference.

The important thing is, I think the clips recorded with monitor IN sound pretty much how I played them compared to the metronome when I play back the clips. I haven't used it long enough to tell if it's perfect but it "feels" pretty good.

:D

I'm going to spend some more time fiddling with it and keep my fingers crossed, but so far so good.

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