Ableton DJs, please pack your bags and go home

[FaX-01]

I can't believe I'm reading this. As a new user to live (or potential user once I've saved enough money), this idiocy is overwhelming. Hands up here who wrote the software to do any of the things which you want to do. no-one? well then. shut the f*** up.
Really, your stupidity knocks me off my feet. Get a fucking grip man! Do your shit, and shut the fuck up!!
fuck man, you take the cake.

Leonard I think you missed the point of his post.
He isn't technically dissing DJ's or Ableton LapJock's either.
The point is there is way more too a good DJ set than just the beat / mixing and effects used etc ........
Live + Laptop does not instantly = good DJ set.
To quote yet again..........

"However, DJing is about your tracks selection, the order you put it in, the flow, the moods you create with it- one that makes makes musical sense...and for God's sake please do it all harmonically!

p.s. dont bother playing around pushing buttons and truning knobs on your controller when your not actually doing anything...alot of us do know the tracks and when you do that stuff you only make yourself look like a fool.".

Take a chill pill .
No need for such knee jerk reaction is there ?

[Celtic]

Guys, beatmatching is not even half of what DJing is about...congrats if you find out how to warp a track after your 2 month learning curve. However, DJing is about your tracks selection, the order you put it in, the flow, the moods you create with it- one that makes makes musical sense...and for God's sake please do it all harmonically!

Well done, you just made yourself look stooopid

What a total contradiction. If beatmatching is only a small part of DJ'ing as you say then whats the problem if you get live to do it for you ?

Fact is, a set using Abey can far out-do what you could achieve using 1210's. I will agree that simply standing there and twiddling the EQ whilst cross-fading is a bit gay but if you put the effort in then Live can do some great tricks.

[hacktheplanet]

This is the worst flame thread in the history of the Ableton forums, I think. He can't even flame right! hahaha

[quandry]

Again, my opinion only.

and you're right

I can see the musician who's been busting his nuts for weeks, months or even years making music, trying to get gigs, trying to make a living off it and failing to do so.

That same musician walks into a club and see a guy playing other people's tunes one after the other and is seen as a God by clubbers.

Does that create frustration and hatred? You betcha!

I'm not even a musician but ...... I understand!

The thing is: Clubbers want DJs and music lovers want musicians performing Live and then there's other people who want a complete package: lights, video, sound, etc, whether as a concert or a carefully prepared gig.

It's about what the public wants! And if some guy has found a trick to convince 25,000 people (in 1 single gig) that he's the dogs nutties when it comes to a night out dancing (i.e. DJ Tiesto), then fair play to him.
I dont like his music but I cant help conclude that COMMERCIALLY he's a f*cking genius!!!

And that's just 1 example.

Kr.

Well put. In the end, live performances can't exist without the audience. Sadly (for people creating their own music at least), we can't control what the audience wants, what they will pay to go see. These days where I live people really don't seem to give a rats ass about going to see live music (i.e. bands), especially local one's playing original music. People want to hear stuff they are familiar with, often they want to dance to a simple beat--like it or not, this is the reality. Anyone whose ever performed mostly original music an the occasional cover song knows that the audience responds the most to the cover song(s)--it is what they know.

Guess there's really no point to my post, other than to say to the original music makers that it is a hard sell, try not to get discouraged when it is hard to get gigs, when things don't work like you think they should. In the end, like most things, it comes down to money, and the venue owners want to book the acts that will bring in the most money from the audience. If the audience basically wants top 40 and whatever crap they want, then you either cater to them or find a venue with a different audience. Sadly there is really no way to change what people want, other than playing some great original music and hopefully catching their attention.

[commodussf]

Folks it ain't about the tools but the person behind those tools. Larry Levan (Paradise Garage) was not the best beatmatcher - you all know how hard it is to beat match those disco tune... but he surely knew his crowd and he pumped that beat there was nobody standing still. I tell this if Larry was alive today he would probably use Ableton Live as does Timmy Regisford at the Shelter.

With all that being said you should whatever the hell you want to use be it turntables or computers.. just make the crowd scream.

And as a last note: knowing how to DJ is an art that is learned through hard work and effort. Ableton Live will never make you any good if you ain't.

[Burt]

Folks it ain't about the tools but the person behind those tools. Larry Levan (Paradise Garage) was not the best beatmatcher - you all know how hard it is to beat match those disco tune... but he surely knew his crowd and he pumped that beat there was nobody standing still. I tell this if Larry was alive today he would probably use Ableton Live as does Timmy Regisford at the Shelter.

With all that being said you should whatever the hell you want to use be it turntables or computers.. just make the crowd scream.

And as a last note: knowing how to DJ is an art that is learned through hard work and effort. Ableton Live will never make you any good if you ain't.

Amen...

and this is the most sensible post on the worst ever thread...

[corkyburger]

Ive been DJing for 15 years and wouldn't dream of playing with anything other than decks. That is my personal taste and I don't think Ableton Live will ever replace that way of working for me, but I am really excited about the combination of using Live with decks, creating remixes live etc. That is a lot of fun.

I can't be bothered to get into the DJ's vs musicians debate, it is such a waste of energy. What I will say is that I find it funny the people dismissing DJ's are actually Live users themselves - you know there are 'real' musicians who feel exactly the same about people that use computers to make music.

[dpel]

this forum is depressing.
why would anybody want to discourage someone else from expressing
themselves creatively? whatever the medium is.

are we really trying to prove something here? (i'm speaking generally)

[mocker]

The definition of a real artist is one who knows HOW to play turntables, but doesnt.

argue with THAT!

(btw, that was a joke about saxophones, until the turntable became the sax of the 21st century)

The joke works really well with accordion too (especally in France)

[djadonis206]

I know how to dj, turntables and all played a few parties

but it's hella fun to mix in Ableton - i don't do it live but when I'm just chillin' at the crib ona sunday afternoon - I'll mix up a 50 - 60 minute mix

but lately I've been mixing on the decks - it feels better

a

[Detail]

have you ever seen RJD2 or somebody play with more than 2 turntables... maybe 4 or 5 even? It's incredible, and also incredibly difficult. It is true that there are a TON of crappy dj's out that just claim to make music and have no real abilities– but to kill it on the wheels of steel is a craft. There are aspects of spinning (well beyond beatmatching and just getting from one song to the next) that makes turntablism a true musical artform- it's a lot more than just ripping off other artists' music (with the exception of pop/radio dj's– a trade I don't condone). If you don't believe this then go fucking try it, you will have a lot more respect for what great DJ's do. Ableton is not an excuse for claimer "DJ's" to get around beatmatching, but IS an incredibly powerful tool with unquestionable creative potential. With that said, when DJ'ing with Live, it better be your own shit you are playing, it's not a replacement for the turntable in any means. Ableton removes the showmanship of a classic turntable performance undoubtedly. On the contrary, I would like to add that if the DJ is doing a good job, regardless of what he is using, and the mix sounds good (interpretations of "good" omitted), then please shut the fuck up because you don't know shit. I apologize for the run-on sentence.

This question is directed to computo and the other sources of ignorance and sheer stupidity on this forum: how can you say "The definition of a real artist is one who knows how to play turntables, but doesn't"? It is obvious that you have not given credit to any time that you have heard scratching in likely many of your favorite songs. And this is utterly avoidable since the turntable has inflitrated all music styles, not limited to hip-hop. I realize you will suggest that any or all of these groups suck, but here's to name a few: Sublime, Linkin Park, Incubus, Beck, Gorillaz, Royksopp. Many Blue Note jazz artists have also incorporated turntablism into their music. This evolution has occurred because "real artists" have recognized the power of the turntable - an instrument that truly sounds like nothing else and has yet to be accurately reproduced with technology, i.e. software and cdj's. Sorry for the long-winded rant, however it is my goal to defend a craft, which appears to be underrepresented on this forum and attacked by individuals who, in all honesty, have no experience with turntables and/or touch little boys. The End.

[supster]

argue with THAT!

ok, thinking ...
.

[cubbie]

I must admit as an older member of the rave generation...I'm pretty amazed with some of the glitchy crazy computer dj sets some of the 19-20 years olds are pumping out lately. (at least here in Toronto where I live)

They live on MSN and use VST plug ins like they were just always there and don't have any preconceived ideas about electronic music genres or how they're supposed to be presented. So its like they put a lot of different rock n roll, techno ideas in a blender and don't even realize what it is they are doing.

I think in some circumstances relieving the burden of keeping tracks in time IS opening up possibilities for making crazier sets, with more fills, change ups glitches, musical changes, with more accuracy and timing, excitement, and tracks that actually go somewhere..as opposed to "DJ tracks" which were those now too boring for words drum only tracks DJs used to spin.

I've heard some really "new" sounds I haven't heard before(its been years since I could have honestly said that techno, trance and house have stagnated with a lack of originality for about 10 years now...I predict a big tidal wave of electronic music is coming that has ZERO to do with "DJing" as we formerly knew it. I'm not saying DJing is dead, I'm saying "something altogetherly different" is coming.

[jdrada]

I don't know what all this pissin' and moaning is about but I have been doing this for 19 1/2 years & Ableton gives me possibilities unheard of, even on 4 turntables. At first I only used the software for Production until I saw it's capabilities, now I enjoy dropping an Ableton set from time to time just to fuck with the crowd.

[kennerb]

They live on MSN and use VST plug ins like they were just always there and don't have any preconceived ideas about electronic music genres or how they're supposed to be presented. So its like they put a lot of different rock n roll, techno ideas in a blender and don't even realize what it is they are doing.

No offense but what are you talking about? How the hell is anything SUPPOSED to be presented. Genres can really be a lame way to categorize things if you ask me. I like to organize my stuff by BPM. That way I am not stuck in a specific "genre". People miss out on a lot of great music because of their adherance to "genres". That mix n' match thing you mentioned is called experimentation in my book and this is how people come up on new sound possibilities. Just think for a second about musicians like the chemical brothers or crystal method. They would not have got their sound if they didn't do that and they are just 2 of the popular ones I can think of off hand.

Now I do agree with you that there are formulas for music that make it easier for a dj to mix and the clubbers are used to but there is a lot of room in, around, and against that.