bidule vs. max/msp vs. reaktor vs ?

The Benjamin · Post by **The Benjamin** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:00 pm

I think '06 will be the year I get into modular music programming like with the above programs. I was wondering if someone on this forum could elucidate advantages/disadvantages to the various programs. Max/MSP has always seemed the gold standard, although some people say that it can be a bitch to program because it allows such low-level control. Reaktor I haven't really taken seriously because I don't care for NI. And I just read about Bidule for the first time a few days ago. Looks promising, though.

Of course I'm most curious about using each in conjunction with Live--I haven't put in all this work to leave Live behind.

computo · Post by **computo** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:31 pm

MAXMAXMAXMAXMAXMAXMAXMAX

thats all you need to know.

clipperer · Post by **clipperer** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:12 pm

yea if you know math well and all thoase scriptings and and and.............

clipperer · Post by **clipperer** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:15 pm

you can try synth maker and tassman

leonard · Post by **leonard** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:46 pm

I guess really, Max/MSP cand offer anything PD can't, except a big hole in the pocket.

leonard · Post by **leonard** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:48 pm

Are these your only options?
I mean, ChucK's come along way, supercollider server is stable and has been for some time. Writing's easier than joining those silly little wires, imho.

Then I guess what midi support each has got woud be a large factor, if you want to integrate it with live. I use midi routed through IAC bus's fairly trouble free to talk between Live, SC3, and a standalone version of kontakt 2. I guess all three would have similar midi capabillities, i dont know.

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:21 am

Yeah, I'm on the same boat man. I just bought a book about MAX...I'm currently reading the fundamentals of MAX programming. Seems interesting, but as someone said, VERY low level. It's been said that you need to have a clear idea of what you want to do before even touching the program, else you might end lost.

As a generative/algorithmic music tool, well, since its oriented towards programming, it seems to be the ticket. And given the way it works, you break free from the standard "linear" way of composing. Food for thought.

Cheers.

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:06 am

well, you'll get results faster with plogue bidule.....but if you're up for it , you should definatly go for MAXmsp.

i've listened to most of the music people are posting over at plogues forum. it all seems to be cut from the same fabric , if you know what I mean. like a similar ;color; of sound for everything. or maybe im imagining it.

Reaktor sounds great , in my opinion. Has an analogue sound to it , plus theres a tonne of instruments available for it - which you could dissect and tear apart - to see how it works. alas , NI do suck as a company tho.

Anyways , I'm just starting too - and i'm only putting serious book time into maxmsp - and csound when that book arrives (thanks computo for the book title..)

bidule is real snappy to use to process midi before it gets to live. without much headache at all. and its also great for mangling sound without much effort (compared to max). definatly worth the 70 dollars its going for at the moment

i believe that reaktor could consume a whole heap of your time to learn it (if you want to build your own instruments etc), id suggest you put that time towards mastering maxmsp - maybe you'l decide you want to build your own custom controllers or interactive media art thingggs.

like someone said , you could also check out supercollider , and csound. and they're both free - and all powerful. spend the money you save on books and methamphetamines. (and max and plogue bidule)

computo · Post by **computo** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:08 am

leonard wrote:Are these your only options?
I mean, ChucK's come along way, supercollider server is stable and has been for some time. Writing's easier than joining those silly little wires, imho.

Then I guess what midi support each has got woud be a large factor, if you want to integrate it with live. I use midi routed through IAC bus's fairly trouble free to talk between Live, SC3, and a standalone version of kontakt 2. I guess all three would have similar midi capabillities, i dont know.

Actually, the learning curve for Supercoliider is equally difficult to Max, and there are really a LOT of similarities from Max to ANY other modular synth software...

And with Max/MSP/Jitter, you can do ANYTHING. ANYTHING...

audio, midi, video info, you can get it all into LIve. you just have to attenuate and direct whatever info you may have coming from video or 3d into something useful in LIve, like a midi parameter, or vice versa.

But yes, PD can probably do a LOT of that also...you just wont find nearly as large or loyal of a community, nor the support or tutorial education that comes with Max.

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:35 pm

Michael-SW · Post by **Michael-SW** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:16 pm

Pure Data. Created by the guy who did MAX. Free.

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:04 pm

oh ya. PD might be way too much for the guy who posted this query.

get max , and todd winklers 'creating interactive music with mxMSP'

and the current version of plogue bidule , for instantanious fun.

and dont look back.

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:48 pm

I can see the usefulness of MAX/MSP and the depth you can achieve. I really can imagine doing all kind of crazy stuff using it on an audio installation or such. What I'd like to know is how you're integrating it in your workflow with live. Do you use it to process/generate midi data? As an instrument? Etc, please share.

clipperer · Post by **clipperer** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:01 pm

tomperson wrote:I can see the usefulness of MAX/MSP and the depth you can achieve. I really can imagine doing all kind of crazy stuff using it on an audio installation or such. What I'd like to know is how you're integrating it in your workflow with live. Do you use it to process/generate midi data? As an instrument? Etc, please share.

yyea.. me 2'd like to know.. this scripting'n stuff feels just so depressive [ not that ive ever felt it ]

computo · Post by **computo** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:35 pm

well, you can really do anything that your little heart can desire.

All those people who ask questions like "how can I trigger 2 clips with one midi note," or "can I adjust multiple cc's with one fader" would never ask anything again...

I do what ever I NEED to do.... You can quickly get emmersed in conflated crap, if you dont have a goal in mind. I build synths, attenuate MIDI info, convert audio and MIDI to video, process audio...just name it.

My boy Phthalocyanine makes processing patches, which whip VST parameters at evil tempos, basically pushing VSTs where they were never meant to go. He'll set tons of parameters to whip between 0 and some high value, at ridiculously fast tempos, to get wild tears and rips and other very unique effects.

Just start with what you need, and soon, you'll be innovating, if for nothing else, for yourself.

Its like building little musical robots, except you really CAN build robots, with the teleo additions.

any other questions, shoot them on...

Also, you dont HAVE to do ANY scripting, thats the beauty of Max, its code written graphically, whatever you graphically author, can be converted to text for easy troubleshooting and transmission to others, but it doesnt have to be. Nor do you ever have to learn or use JAVA or c++, but you can...thats the real pearl in this oyster. You can be as simple, or complex as you want...and the more complex you get, the more efficient you can get, with the scripting end.

Just start messing with the tutorials...taking them apart, learning how they operate, what does what, and then you can piece together what you like from the parts of the tutorials...Its the best way to learn the process, just like webauthoring.