bidule vs. max/msp vs. reaktor vs ?

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:56 am

yes, this is the reason why a very complex piece of software either needs:

a: A huge user library and/or very good tutorials. or
b: the ability to create something unique, that the user has envisioned.

I find that for me both of these serve as "over-rides" for this gratification needs.

Max/msp and Reaktor both match these pretty darned well, and tbh, I'd probably also be all over Max if I didn't suck at it so much

leonard · Post by **leonard** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:41 am

Not to hijack the discussion at all, but Computer Music Journal just released an entire issue dedicated to visual music. There's even an article about jitter. Havn't read it yet (only came in the mail yesterday). Theres a free article there for your your perusal, should you feel so inclined (just follow the link).

conny · Post by **conny** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:50 pm

computo wrote: Use soundflower if you're having trouble.

Soundflower is Mac only it seems.
But Midi Yoke works for Midi to/from MAX.

//

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:24 pm

as a musician you expect instant gratifacation ?

tsk tsk tsk,
you reap what you sow , Mbazzy. There's no denying the instantanious results of bidule. But you are in danger of developing a bad habit of not investing any time into new forms of expression.....what you are forgetting is that once you've invested that initial two years of truely mastering and getting to know maxmsp , all of that knowledge will be immediatly at hand. and then you can instantaniously recall it any time it takes your fancy.

tsk tsk tsk!

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:46 pm

Henry, I don't expect full blown gratification , but I do prefer some kind of gratification ... I don't come from any math/programming background at all ... and for me Max/Msp is very, very lowlevel ... I can't imagine that someone with no real feeling for math and programming and logic will be able to do much with Max/msp ... maybe it's that at 40 years old I've become a bit more old school already

...

With Bidule I can already start off somewhere and go slowly into the deeper buildingblocks that demand more of the aforementionned knowledge ... with max/msp I feel much more being thrown into "difficult matter" and having to spend all my time on tinkering and learning instead of being creative with sound/music ...

computo · Post by **computo** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:55 pm

henry ford wrote:as a musician you expect instant gratifacation ?

Dont ever take up the violin!

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:06 pm

Maybe not the violin, but I was a classically schooled clarinet player ... the analogy makes no sense to me ... learning the violin (or any classic instruments) is a dexteriority question and the ability to learn and read your sheetmusic in all the different keys, scales etc ... learning max/msp is like building your own violin before playing it ... and this isn't a given fact for everyone ...

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:34 pm

heh , mbazzy you got it all wrong. I can neither play the violin , nor programme with max...and I -failed- maths at school. And I aint about to guzzle no tears , I'm diving in and If I dont re-surface dont worry , I'll be back in the form of an interactive piece of fabric a few months later.

The dexterity required to play the violin is easily comparable (and in all honesty would be waaay harder to get something nice sounding out of compared to max) to the initial learning curve of max for someone who knows nothing about either device........you just dont want to admit you're wrong man , WRONG WRONG WRONG...SO WRONG...SO WRONG..OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OHHHH ohHhHhhHhHhHhhhhhhhhh SOOO SOOOoOSOSOosoSOosoOSOsoSOOsoOSOsoOOSOOOOOOOOO wrong

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:45 pm

I'd love to be able to work in Max/msp with all its possibilities in audio/video ... don't get me wrong either ... but I just can't get my grasp on it ... sorry ... maybe I'm just too dumb

I've tried (it was PD not Max though) , I failed and had to "migrate" to something similar but more understandable for my mindset ...

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:51 pm

dont put yourself down either...

you obviously have a musical background so thats a major part of the puzzle complete. pick up a book on algebra , from absolute beginner to intermediate. get yourself 'composing interactive music with max msp' by todd winkler ....get maxmsp and jitter , join the email list.....and spend an hour or so on it every second day.

give it a year.......and I swear to you , you'll be happy you did. after a year that is....hehe

by the way , max is graphicaly programmed....little boxes called objects with dedicated ins ,outs , and functions......a different horse to PD in that respect

tho i havent used PD , i believe its a command-line type of pony.

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:03 pm

hey computo , I checked out your site...Heh - I like you're style , Havent heard any stuff yet tho....downloaded the video and I'll check it out later. You use the kaos pad as a midi interface ?

Got a few more books to add to my learning schedule , including the csound book. Its a monster...I just need a book on algebra now , a pound of weed , and for my loan to come through so I can get a new computer (this laptop is a dying piece of shit), jitter , and a few more bits and pieces

have you checked out 'composing music with computers' by eduardo miranda ?

apalomba · Post by **apalomba** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:28 pm

I am a little late in joining this discussion but I thought I would chime in.
I have been using MAX for quite some time. Yes there is a learning
curve you have to get over, but the pay off in the end is worth it. But
you have tp be patient. The creative doors MAX opens is mind blowing.
I love it because it gives me the ability to use my imagination to create instruments that allow me to express myself in ways I could never do before. That is the beauty of MAX, it lets you develop the level of
complexity you like. It could be a simple sampling instrument or a
full blown realtime algorthmic improvisational environment.

>>> "I did that entire video with midi sent from Live into Max."

Computo, I would be interested in knowing more about how you used
Live/MAX to do this. Did you use Live as a rewire master? How are you
passing the MIDI data to MAX?

Anthony

conny · Post by **conny** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:33 pm

Mbazzy wrote:Henry, I don't expect full blown gratification , but I do prefer some kind of gratification ...

With Bidule I can already start off somewhere and go slowly into the deeper buildingblocks that demand more of the aforementionned knowledge ...

That's about where I am, too.

Heard about video creative things in MAX, but aside from that, what are the big things you use it for?

// C

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:55 pm

interactive art. custom instruments. robotics style stuff using teleo modules.

go here: http://www.cycling74.com/community/videointerviews.html

computo · Post by **computo** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:12 pm

let me just start by saying, Dont waste your time with the Max list.

Despite the presence of some great minds, the majority of users on that forum, are total dicks, and can offer no useful answers other than to berade, and demean new comers, or legit answer seekers.

Aside from that, I ported midi through the virtual midi ports offered through apples, and sent different channels to different subpatchers. Each subpatcher takes the note and velocity data, and uses that info to determine color and placement.

I'll happily show the patch, if you have jitter. otherwise, its not going to be much use.

Final note, I have some respect for some of the people on the max list. Some of them are quite helpful. But there are some really bad seeds, much as with every forum. But, when people start replying with absolutely nothing to offer, other than ridicule, whats the point?