more on RME

taikowaza · Post by **taikowaza** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:46 am

I spent the last half of the day reading forums about sound cards,
is anyone running softsynths and playing them musically over dense, effect laden projects? By musically I mean, no latency, as if it were a piano that you were playing, or a drum that is in time, while recording.
From reading, I got the impression that the newest RME fireface 800 could do this, in the audiomidi review, he says that his ableton live latency is down to 2ms...
but I think that this is misleading perhaps?
I get the feeling that the RME gear is worth the extra price.
If it were up to you, would you get a multiface with PCI or fireface 800, if your goal was low, low latency

this is on PC, firewire 400, currently using an edirol fa-101 whose drivers have not been updated for 18 months and you have to unplug it and turn off live every time you change latency, and which boosts your processor by 10-20% everytime you plug it in.

YILA · Post by **YILA** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:57 am

Yeh get one man its wicked

Its more of a pro recording card though, with high quality mic Pre's.
I use a photon x25 for portable use while the RME stays in the studio hooked up to cubase, then i use it for gigs - what is great is it also doubles as a mixing desk.

Your never going to get no latencey - u can use direct monitoring to get a no latenecey monitor of your audio input.

If you can afford Get one! there wicked

Emissary · Post by **Emissary** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:57 am

RME are the best soundcards you can get, trust me. i can get 2ms latency on my multiface without much problem. And they are built like big fat tanks. Personally i think the multiface is better but only because I've had an issue where I kepy pulling my old firewire sound cards lead out of the front of my laptop by accident.. But either one is amazing

muthafunka · Post by **muthafunka** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:41 pm

Fireface here too, fantastic piece, sound- and features-wise. If you're looking in that price range the motu 828 2 is certainly a pretty good deal, well-built and good-sounding, also def. worth a look are the metric halo mobiles, both the 8 I/O and the 2I/O (numbers elude me). For what it's worth I don't anticipate buying another soundcard for years, but do spend some time and make sure you're getting what YOU, and not someone else, needs.

taikowaza · Post by **taikowaza** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:53 pm

Thanks for the replies last night. I checked the Halo but it seems MAC only so that's out. Multiface is less than fireface, but if you buy both PCI and cardbus, the prices are pretty close, within $300 or so. I like the mic pres on the fireface.
Is it correct to assume that the latency on the Multiface can get lower than the fireface? reading the sound on sound review this morning I came up on this-
am I correct in assuming that the multiface can get 1ms latency, the fireface gets 3.9 or so? I think that my logic (as in thought, not soft) is flawed but I don't want to mess up a purchase this big. I like the thought of these inputs (fireface) that can dial in weaker sounds with some nice warmth, but if the latency is much slower than it's not worth it.
is there anyone who has experience with both?
plus, I cannot access the rme forum, nor contact anyone there. any contact info would be appreciated.
also, anyone interested in buying an editol fa-101 pls. contact me by personal message on this forum.
thanks

"Unlike most of RME's PCI-based audio hardware, which offers a minimum buffer size of 64 samples (1ms latency at 44.1kHz), the Fireface offers values as low as 48 samples, alongside larger buffer sizes of 64, 128, 1024, 2048, 4096 and 8192 samples. However, there is a small caveat here because in order to ensure the reliable transmission of audio data over Firewire, the Fireface makes use of what RME term a 'Safety Buffer', which is a 64-sample buffer that's accumulated to the existing driver buffer on playback"

This means that the actual minimum playback latency is 48+64=112 samples, and the minimum theoretical software-based monitoring latency through an ASIO application such as Nuendo is 48+64+48=160 samples. As an example, with 48 samples set as the buffer size on the Fireface, Nuendo reported 1.134ms as the Input Latency and 2.585ms as the Output Latency with delay compensation enabled. And while the Safety Buffer might sound like a disadvantage, 112 samples is still acceptable, and it does ensure the Fireface works reliably, especially at higher sample rates such as 192kHz.

muthafunka · Post by **muthafunka** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:00 pm

You should be able to acces the rme newsgroup from their page through firefox or mozilla.

news://news.x-networks.de/rme-audio.forum

beardedone · Post by **beardedone** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:02 pm

I jsut got a Multiface II. It really is worth ever penny. Stable, stable driver s on my Carillon PC and the software (TotalMix) is amazing.

MarkH · Post by **MarkH** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:05 pm

First of all, just so you're aware, the specs on the Fireface are better than the Multiface. Dig through the specs on the RME site.. The Multiface is two generations old, dynamic range is something like 109, and the Fireface is based in RME's latest technologies and is something like 117. There are other factors too.

When the Fireface reports latency to the sequencer host it is also reporting the additional Firewire latency time based on your OS. So you may not see 1ms input, 1ms output latency, but it doesn't mean the latency is any worse than any other audio card, it just means RME is being brutally honest.

I was looking through the PDF manual for the Echo Audiofire cards and it shows you can lower the buffer as low as 32. That's pretty darn good! In terms of quality, SOS gave it a major thumbs up, but otherwise I don't know. MOTU Traveler is great too, like the Fireface, but a better software control panel, but in 44.1k you can only bring the buffer down to 96 (weird number, not 128 or 64, but 96).

I don't think you can go wrong with the Fireface or Multiface, but it's a fact (based on the exact words on RME's site) that the Fireface is based on the ADI technology which is better than the older technology the Multiface is based on.

taikowaza · Post by **taikowaza** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:08 pm

hi, just so I'm clear- I am comparing the newer Multiface II (released this past summer) and the Fireface. Not the older version of the Multiface.

taikowaza · Post by **taikowaza** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:10 pm

PS. I still can't access the RME forum at
news://news.x-networks.de/rme-audio.forum
firefox tells me that news is not a registered protocol.

MarkH · Post by **MarkH** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:14 pm

taikowaza wrote:PS. I still can't access the RME forum at
news://news.x-networks.de/rme-audio.forum
firefox tells me that news is not a registered protocol.

It's a Newsgroup server, not a forum, so you your ISP should give you a News Server address to use. It's way old school.

taikowaza · Post by **taikowaza** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:16 pm

Thanks Mark for your post. WHen you write that
'When the Fireface reports latency to the sequencer host it is also reporting the additional Firewire latency time based on your OS. So you may not see 1ms input, 1ms output latency, but it doesn't mean the latency is any worse than any other audio card, it just means RME is being brutally honest'.
do you mean that the 'additional firewire latency' is not present with the PCI multiface?
what I am getting at, is the PCI multiface faster than the firewire 800,

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:14 pm

i have a multiface, love it. but the emu 1616m is great as well, ridiculously good converters, cheaper than RME, same card-type interface (so you don't have too many things sharing firewire, as i would since my external drive is firewire). so you may want to look at the emu as well.

MarkH · Post by **MarkH** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:19 pm

taikowaza wrote:Thanks Mark for your post. WHen you write that
'When the Fireface reports latency to the sequencer host it is also reporting the additional Firewire latency time based on your OS. So you may not see 1ms input, 1ms output latency, but it doesn't mean the latency is any worse than any other audio card, it just means RME is being brutally honest'.
do you mean that the 'additional firewire latency' is not present with the PCI multiface?
what I am getting at, is the PCI multiface faster than the firewire 800,

Based on RME's white paper, and what the "industry standard" has been for the last several years in most non-Pro Tools studios, the RME PCI product line *is* the best sounding + best performing setup you can buy. Not to say Firefire is bad, because I think the Fireface is the best made Firewire device out there, but if what RME says is true and performance (latency and quality) are absolutely critical, the RME PCI product line is the way to go. Many "high end" studios, especially those based around Nuendo (like post production facilities), use the MADI line.

John Sweet · Post by **John Sweet** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:40 pm

No issues on sound & stability, but I'm still figuring out my Multiface II. I've played 2 shows with it now & things seem good, but I have to set my buffer around 300 for full functionality. Is this normal?

I use a big session--180+ scenes, 4 audio playback tracks, 2 Impulses, an Operator/Automat track, mono hardware send/return, then another 9 live input tracks routed down to 1 for easy control [inside Live, not TotalMix, though I know that's possible]. So in the end, I control 9 tracks live.

I often "ride" the tempo of the live input (turntable & instruments) by tapping the tempo button all the way through an acapella verse or whatever I'm cutting in [it sounds like weak technique I know, but you can really play with the feel this way].

The problem is, unless I crank my buffer size thru the roof I can't tap the tempo button more than a few times without glitching. And at 300, latency DOES become an issue. Not for me & anyone else playing instruments necessarily, but my turntablist compadre is hurting. Any suggestions?

*PB 1.6, 1.5 GB RAM, 500 GB FW 800 RAID HD, Hammerfall+ Multiface II*

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