Very OT, 9/11

[shtreimel]

Having served in the IDF, I know propaganda first hand. And while i'm not surprised to see a bunch of artists engaging in conspiracy talk (funny how most artists yearn to see themselves as "alternative" yet dress, talk and believe the same things as each other). But let's consider this:

1) We know about Iran's Islamic revolution
2) We know their values/ideas clash with Western values/ideas
3) We know that they have recently snubbed the UN, and are in the process of making Nuclear fuel
4) We know that their president has said things i.e. the Holocaust never happened, Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, that would make most KKK folks proud

Given all this...if Iran targets/threatens Israel, Britain, America, in a few years...will we forget about the events that led to the attack, and subsequent counter-attack, and blame Bush? Just wondering.

Ok, back to Live.

[djshiva]

Having served in the IDF, I know propaganda first hand. And while i'm not surprised to see a bunch of artists engaging in conspiracy talk (funny how most artists yearn to see themselves as "alternative" yet dress, talk and believe the same things as each other). But let's consider this:

1) We know about Iran's Islamic revolution
2) We know their values/ideas clash with Western values/ideas
3) We know that they have recently snubbed the UN, and are in the process of making Nuclear fuel
4) We know that their president has said things i.e. the Holocaust never happened, Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, that would make most KKK folks proud

Given all this...if Iran targets/threatens Israel, Britain, America, in a few years...will we forget about the events that led to the attack, and subsequent counter-attack, and blame Bush? Just wondering.

Ok, back to Live.

i think a really important question not being asked here is: why has islamic fundamentalism become so prevalent in the last few decades? and how interesting that the timeline is paralleled by a similar religious fundamentalism in the US...

i am not a real fan of ANY ideological absolutism. but i think that one does have to take into account the history of imperialism (not just by the US) in countries all over, but in this case, specifically in arab nations, in pursuit of control over natural resources, or (in the case of afghanistan) to maintain the edge in the cold war. it's not a new thing that people who have been under the thumb of foreign colonizing powers tend to react with guerilla tactics and to wrap themselves in religious fervor that they believe takes them as far away from the foreign beliefs of the colonizers as possible.

i don't JUST blame bush for the issues we face right now. i think he is an idiot, and a conniving bastard, but i think this goes way deeper than him, and it goes back WAAAAAAAAAAY further than him as well. american history is rife with conquest and power-grabbing and absolute disregard for the cultures that we have continually used and abused for our own ends.

will we ever know the truth about 9/11? possibly not. but if we resign ourselves to accepting the obfuscation without question, and refuse to examine our history, then we are doomed to be another embarassing story in the annals of history (america already has the genocide of native americans, slavery and the atomic bomb; woohoo.). i would rather history reflect that, regardless of the outcome, people stood up and spoke out and searched for truth, in the best way they knew how.

[DeadlyKungFu]

uh huh huh huh... he said annal.

[computo]

Good god, I dont even know where to begin with that IDF guy.

[sweetjesus]

Having served in the IDF, I know propaganda first hand. And while i'm not surprised to see a bunch of artists engaging in conspiracy talk (funny how most artists yearn to see themselves as "alternative" yet dress, talk and believe the same things as each other). But let's consider this:

1) We know about Iran's Islamic revolution
2) We know their values/ideas clash with Western values/ideas
3) We know that they have recently snubbed the UN, and are in the process of making Nuclear fuel
4) We know that their president has said things i.e. the Holocaust never happened, Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, that would make most KKK folks proud

Given all this...if Iran targets/threatens Israel, Britain, America, in a few years...will we forget about the events that led to the attack, and subsequent counter-attack, and blame Bush? Just wondering.

Ok, back to Live.

Hey as someone who is Iranian in descent, I thought I'd make a few points. Sorry if theyre not as insightful as Shiva's or other peoples, but important nonetheless.

1) Iran's crappy revolution stems back beyond 1977 or whenever it was it happened.. in 1953 the CIA ousted the Iranian prime minister at the behest of the UK and then the Shah took to power, all in the name of oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadeq

2) In the late 70's the Shah also announced he will cease selling Iran's national asset to the rest of the world and what happens... within a year or so later there's another revolution..

3) The current president is a whackjob, but he does make a fair point in 'why should the middle east suffer because of problems that were created in europe', everything else he says is total BS. he really is a whackjob.


4) If India, Pakistan, Israel, China, USA, Russia all can have such weapons in the name of 'self defence' then why can't Iran, especially considering it has seen its neighbor attacked using a propaganda campaigne. Furthermore, Iran has a HUGE population for its size. I'm sure most of the work in that fuel go towards energy without meddling in prices of the fuel. Basically Iran wants economic independence from the west. Perfect example, russias' actions with gas towards ukraine.

5) Many countries ideas clash with the west.. especially in asia..

6) people in iran don't dislike americans or whatever, they just dont like having their affairs meddled with.

[pilcrow]

Good god, I dont even know where to begin with that IDF guy.

An idea: Begin by answering his question

[henry ford]

dunno what more to say ..

just that I do care, but am one of those passive people who arent prepared to stick their neck out and actually do something ... I try and keep informed but do not delve too deep for fear of what I may find.

It is obvious that 9/11 was engineered to an extent, whether it was allowed to happen or actually actioned by the US. Blair is to blame also, as I think his support gave extra justification/confidence to the Bush admin, and also the supportive US citizens at the time.

Personally, myself and everyone I know have been disgusted by this war for oil and power. Esp, given that millions of pounds of our tax money has been used for this purpose, which no-one supports.

The question is, what can be done? Is informing people enough? Because, to be honest, apart from odd conversations I have with friends and family on the subject, and the odd protest I went to before and just after the Iraq war started, I've just been getting on with my daily life, working, making music, partying, dealing with whats happening around me. The war is mostly a distant thing we see on the news. And most people, even when confronted with evidence will choose to ignore it becuase it is difficult to deal with and its easier just to say "well what can we do?" and carry on ... that is until they are directly affected by it.

reminds me of the germans, during world war II. dont you think ? You know the germans arent boogey men, even the german soldiers arent boogey men. Alot of them were compassionate decent human beings. But, exactly like you;re saying, they enjoyed their comforts and their lifestyle so they did nothing. The ropey thing about these large institutions is how removed one can feel from responsibility. Well that has to stop. People HAVE to take responsibility for their tax dollar. Either they take responsibility, or someone else will. And by that I mean both the corrupt man, or in contrast the righteous indignation of an oppressed people. This passive shit has to stop, everywhere. Especially for you in the USA. Your foreign policy is way out of line, and for what? What liberties do you receive for passively allowing these things to happen ? As far as I can see your country is on a one way course to a totalitarian state. Apparently locking down the mexican borders - perhaps even building a wall FOR FUCK SAKE... oh, and dont tell me its because imigrants are stealing your taxes. If you care so much about your taxes being stolen, why dont you care about them funding death and oppression? The privitasation of prisons, education, and health. Hell - thats where I;d start breaking windows. Never mind waiting till my taxes are being spent on bombs and cohersion. My advice to the disenfranchised of america is to move to canada while you can, DONT disarm, and hopefully the people who stay will start smashing shit and remove the tumourous corporations and administrations, or at least everyone left there will be a muling cabbage. a patriot who wont mind being bombed by desperate brown people, or even one of your own. cue timothy mcveigh number two.

well, one could say that we are all being affected by it, on subtle levels that may not scream "hey this is is hurting you!", but do affect you nonetheless.

there are so many levels to all of this, from seeing people you know going to fight in this war, the economy dragging lower and lower into the toilet from shuffling all monies off into the war (and consequently, into the pockets of private companies like halliburton), tax dollars siphoned from social programs that put the poor further into crisis, and now...having your phone tapped, or your local peace and justice group infiltrated by the FBI...or...running the INCREASED risk of terrorist attack based on your country's participation or just plain accessibility.

but aside from even those things...what i wonder about is the more metaphysical aspect of things as well...when "we" are living in a nation that is stuffing fear down our throats in every aspect, when the general feeling toward the US is either fear or hatred of our imperialist policies, when our tax dollars go to supporting death and the new colonialism (that ain't democracy in iraq...in case anyone wasn't paying attention), when thousands are dying...and the world's largest superpower is using its power to bully other countries and the people inside its own...

don't you think that weighs on the collective consciousness in a big way? perhaps i am the only one who sees the general malaise that spreads as a result of these things...but i think it's real...and it's nasty...

and it affects us all...even with our computer workstations, and our portable mp3 players, and our new shoes or jacket we got for xmas, our dvd players and hi definition tvs...down deep...something is rotten...

i don't pretend to have all the answers...believe me. i am feeling mighty heavy right now...like there's an anvil on my shoulders. i am not sure how to stop the tide of power grabbing going on in my own country right now (so much for democracy), but i do know this: i will not sit passively by and watch it happen. whatever i can do to fight, that is better than doing nothing. win or lose...that's not the point. the point is the struggle...and knowing i did not passively accept our fate.

ok...enough of that...off i go to fight the man...

::edited for lousy spelling and typos::

yes - do something DO SOMETHING! personally, I think smashing windows of business' is a good way to start. On a widescale at least. Tho you would actually need some kind of military coo - cos that place, USA, is fuckin designed to accomodate martial law.

oh and as for democracy in iraq...well thats an interesting one. The us are only fighting the sunni insurgency in the heartland of iraq. They have given the shi-ites free-reign to do what the wish down south, and so there has been less US mortalities in those battalions. The shi-ites have the political majority, they are fundamentalist islamics, they are pro-iran and all the rhetoric that entails, and they are also sitting on the largest oil reserves. The USA has made a big boo-boo, it created a vacuum and these guys are filling the void, and whats more the USA are already pandering to their requests (by not actively attacking/arresting shi-ite 'insurgents') - tho Im not sure what their plan is. Stay tuned for part 2. Oh, and news just out is that George W Bush intended on bombing Al-jazeera, but was detered by Colin Powel and Tony Blair, this was when the US was assaulting fallujah in a way too aggressive, heavy handed manner. Al-jazeera broadcast the footage and the shi-ites went crazy..where-as previously they were sympathetic to the occupational forces. This was known before the last US elections, but people thought that by releasing that information , americas idiots would actually FAVOUR george for being such a ...moron.

[M. Bréqs]

Have I wandered onto a MENSA forum by mistake?

No, there are way too many stupid people here.

Besides, Mensans are assholes. I should know. I used to be one and decided that their company wasn't worthwhile and cancelled my membership.

[edited] I don't want to come off as an asshole myself. Sorry. But I can only tolerate so much silliness in one thread. Whether or not there was a conspiracy regarding 9/11 is irrelevant to one point: Radical Islam threatens my safety and the safety of the people I love.

If we have to be pro-active to prevent that, so be it. Remember, whether or not there was advance notice of Pearl Harbour, America's contribution to the victory over the Nazis and Imperial Japanese was ultimately for the better. It was a necessary pretext.

That all said, I don't think that it was a conspiracy on the part of the US administration - it was a conspiracy on the part of some insane cave dwelling jihadists and their ilk.

[henry ford]

Having served in the IDF, I know propaganda first hand.

yes. you do.

1) We know about Iran's Islamic revolution
2) We know their values/ideas clash with Western values/ideas
3) We know that they have recently snubbed the UN, and are in the process of making Nuclear fuel
4) We know that their president has said things i.e. the Holocaust never happened, Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, that would make most KKK folks proud

Given all this...if Iran targets/threatens Israel, Britain, America, in a few years...will we forget about the events that led to the attack, and subsequent counter-attack, and blame Bush? Just wondering.

Ok, back to Live.

First of all, 30% of iran are in their early 20's and statistically are smarter then the same demograph both in europe and america. They also blog alot. The ayatollah does not reperesent their interests, but given the actions of nations such as yours, the most vile israel, and the usa, Despots like him are put in power. Personally, I think he would will an attack on his country to get the backing of the younger demograph and have them more in-line with the fundamentalist way of thinking. ie - fuck the west. This military tactic, is not rocket science. It was carried out in iraq too, whereby some americans would be killed - and next thing the US military go around killing indiscriminatly in 'revenge', this is playing into their hands because it generates support - violent support - for their cause. Any half-way compitent military 'expert' could tell you that. So I believe, on a large scale the ayatollah is doing the same thing to get everyone in line in his own country. Because they're not all inline at the moment. There is a great article in yesterdays guardian, a candid criticism of the USA's military actions in iraq, by one of the UK;s heads of command. To sum it up, they;re patriotic idiots who wont report bad news up the chain of command, and who are instituionaly racist because they truely believe america is the best and fail to capture the hearts and minds of the people they think they are trying to liberate because of this.

anyways, to answer your question, I wont forget what led to an attack on israel, britain, america. I can only speak for myself.

I saw a documentary on the jewish settlers leaving the gaza strip. Have to say, I;ve never seen so many schizos in one place other than ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOOS NEST.....if you think fundamentalist islams rhetoric is dicey , you should hear these fools. of course...thats not whats being fed to you on tv.

[chicotree]

Watch the power of nightmares by Adam Curtis. They played it on the BBC reluctantly, but it got a great audience response. It is a docu about the history of Islamic Fundamentalism. It all started with an Egyptian intellectual who's ideas influenced the guys above bin Laden who started the real islamic front. Also goes into detail on the failure of the US to capture or prosecute those hiding in 'sleeper cells.' The evidence in any arrests has been so small, but arrests continue as proof of winning the war on terror. This is all well documented in the movie btw.Those secret cave bunkers were all a joke. Rumsfield described secret lairs on tv with maps in Torabora. Nothing has ever been found anywhere close to what he said. You can do a search at some torrent sites for the Power of Nightmares by Adam Curtis. Very informative. Nothing like it has been made. There is also a docu done by a Japanese guy in Fallujah that shows how the US weapons are not very accurate and house are always getting bombed by accident. Also explains the history of civilian uprising. How the militray went from being seen as liberators to now as invaders. They are suprising events. Do any of you know about white phosphorus used by the military? I could go on, but you should research for yourself

[henry ford]

[edited] I don't want to come off as an asshole myself. Sorry. But I can only tolerate so much silliness in one thread. Whether or not there was a conspiracy regarding 9/11 is irrelevant to one point: Radical Islam threatens my safety and the safety of the people I love. If we have to be pro-active to prevent that, so be it. Remember, whether or not there was advance notice of Pearl Harbour, America's contribution to the victory over the Nazis and Imperial Japanese was ultimately for the better.

first of all, thats not the point.
japan was seeking russia's help to end the war in July 1945. the US was aware of this at the time thru intercepted Japanese cables. But the US did not keep up with this change in Japan's position, the US chose military methods of ending the war rather than diplomatic methods. the desire for 'revenge' helped make military methods more attractive. they probably could have ended the war sooner with fewer deaths on all sides by using the full carrot and stick: 1) offer retention of the Emperor for a quick surrender; and 2) threaten Russian invasion and 3) atomic destruction as the alternative. None of these key incentives to surrender were used prior to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. Had the above method failed, and had the Russian invasion failed to bring surrender soon, the atomic bombs were still available - but as a last resort. After the atomic bombings, Japan was allowed to retain their Emperor, anyway.

Not only that , there are absolutely NO VIABLE MILITARY TARGETS in nagasaki. They fuckin nuked kids, and civilians purely as a show of military might. And all of this , was brought on...by the dubious , dubious, oh so dubious events at pearl harbour.

its clear to me what their intention was.

[henry ford]

Do any of you know about white phosphorus used by the military? I could go on, but you should research for yourself

ya i know about it. They've always used that shit it seems. I'm reading some interviews and lectures with karlheinz stockhausen, and he talks about his early childhood. Anyways he was a medic during world war 2, and the germans were losing at this stage and moral was low, he used to play music for his comrades and for the wounded americans who made it to the hospital. Anyways , the hospital he worked at had a huge red cross painted on the roof - designed to be highly visible from the air, The americans shot at it day after day , and dropped white phosphate onto it afterwards. That includes their own wounded - who also, by the way were by karlheinz's words absolutely brainwashed and convinced they would be tortured upon being captured. Karlheinz could speak fluent english at the time,...

[sweetjesus]

I have one more thing to add ...

1) Bin Laden .. put there by USA

2) Iran's government .. there through USA's & Britains direct actions

3) Saddam.. put there by USA...

see a pattern forming?

[M. Bréqs]

[edited] I don't want to come off as an asshole myself. Sorry. But I can only tolerate so much silliness in one thread. Whether or not there was a conspiracy regarding 9/11 is irrelevant to one point: Radical Islam threatens my safety and the safety of the people I love. If we have to be pro-active to prevent that, so be it. Remember, whether or not there was advance notice of Pearl Harbour, America's contribution to the victory over the Nazis and Imperial Japanese was ultimately for the better.

first of all, thats not the point.
japan was seeking russia's help to end the war in July 1945. the US was aware of this at the time thru intercepted Japanese cables. But the US did not keep up with this change in Japan's position, the US chose military methods of ending the war rather than diplomatic methods. the desire for revenge helped make military methods more attractive. they probably could have ended the war sooner with fewer deaths on all sides by using the full carrot and stick: 1) offer retention of the Emperor for a quick surrender; and 2) threaten Russian invasion and 3) atomic destruction as the alternative. None of these key incentives to surrender were used prior to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. Had the above method failed, and had the Russian invasion failed to bring surrender soon, the atomic bombs were still available - but as a last resort. After the atomic bombings, Japan was allowed to retain their Emperor, anyway.

Not only that , there are absolutely NO VIABLE MILITARY TARGETS in nagasaki. They fuckin nuked kids, and civilians purely as a show of military might. And all of this , was brought on...by the dubious , dubious, oh so dubious events at pearl harbour.

its clear to me what their intention was.

1. I was discussing the commencement of the US involvement in the war, not the end.

2. Since you brought up the end, it was widely believed that an invasion of Japan would cost millions of more lives. Only hundreds of thousands of Japanese died in the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

3. The objective was also to prove to Russia that further military conquest after WWII would have been futile in the face of US technology. This directly saved millions, possibly a billion more lives from Stalin's madness.

[henry ford]

that barely warrants a response, given your snotty nature. i wonder how many times you'll edit it anyways