Very OT, 9/11

[M. Bréqs]

It's pretty easy to find biased information on the internet for any cause. Everybody's got an agenda. Honestly, the internet is what fuels this 9/11 conspiracy silliness, and I've seen the anti-israel rhetoric all over the internet.

I find it highly unlikely that Israeli soldiers routinely shoot children on purpose.

Palestinian civilian casualties are almost always the fault of the jihadists who position their bomb factories, training centres and command/control nodes within CIVILIAN POPULATIONS. Don't blame Israel for the cowardly act of jihidsts hiding behind children, only to sortie out long enough to blow up some cafe goers and then retreat back to their morally repugnant "safe houses".

Honestly - Islam exists from the Western tip of Africa and extends all the way to Indonesia. All Israel wants is a sliver of land a half-hour's drive across, and to live there in peace. 55+ years of threats from enemies on ALL SIDES, who espouse absolute extermination of your presence off of your tiny sliver of land has forced Israel to react to this agression.

Why can't the Islamic world just leave Israel this little sliver of land? They want so little - just the right to exist in peace. Why doesn't Jordan, Syria and Egypt, who express such "solidarity" with their palestinian "brothers" allow the palestinians (who have been in their countries for years and had children) to permanently settle? Anti-semitism, that's why.

And no, I'm not Jewish. I lived in a very muslim neighbourhood and went to school with Algerians, Moroccans, palestinians, Egyptians and many others - I have seen this hatred for Jews at the absolute core of their ideology. In my opinion, Israel has the right to defend herself.

Why does the left wing in the West so villify Israel? Because it's a hold-over from the cold war, when the Soviets, with their middle eastern influence in Egypt and Syria, successfully dissiminated their propaganda that Israel was evil / right wing (as a satellite state of the West). It exists to this day, and the Left (as usual) doesn't think things through; they just continue to believe that old propaganda and label anything that's linked to NATO or the United States as "evil". And the left's naivite works out perfectly for these jihadist maniacs - that's why there are so many jihad apologists on these forums.

Naturally, I won't convince anybody on an internet forum, so I don't know why I bother writing this. Ignorance, hatred, brain-washing and prejudice are immune to logic.

[FireForEffect]

Last I checked the Israeli's aren't trying to cut my head off. Cannot say the same for radical islamic jihad. Of course, all of you(myself included) are "infadel's" and even if you are rooting for your enemy they will still kill you unless you convert.

[M. Bréqs]

Last I checked the Israeli's aren't trying to cut my head off. Cannot say the same for radical islamic jihad. Of course, all of you(myself included) are "infadel's" and even if you are rooting for your enemy they will still kill you unless you convert.

Agreed 100%.

[henry ford]

almost laughable....you have me so figured out, of course the facts have nothing to do with it. just propaganda left over from the coldwar and some good ole anti-semitism. i suppose the credibility of 'the guardian's reporting will be called into question next

edit:
also, just to prevent you from wasting anytime. I am not pro-jihad, etc etc. I dont think anyone here is. To be critical of israel is not the same as being pro-jihad. So dont waste our time, because we can all coalesce on that at least. Besides, if it concerns you so - and if you were a better person - you might take more of an active interest in the foul play of israel. its things like shooting children in the face, that really cause heads to roll.

[forgie]

Woah, last time I checked this thread there was some level of civility going on, but now......

All I can say is that this 'denial of our own evil' attitude exhibited by a few members of this forum is a little sickening. Not to mention sad. Ugh. Um let me just say that judging by your political attitudes, some of you need to "wake the fuck up".

M. Breqs said: "Naturally, I won't convince anybody on an internet forum, so I don't know why I bother writing this. Ignorance, hatred, brain-washing and prejudice are immune to logic."

Ugh, this sort of shit makes me sick. Why do you think it is that the vast majority of those who study global politics end up vilifying the US and Israel in terms of their foreign policy? Do you seriously think that everyone in educational institutions is 'brain-washed'?

You explained the lefts criticism of Israel as being anti-semitic. Um.... why do the same people who actively protest intolerance (racism, violence, industrial relations issues etc.) also protest against Israel. Do you think that these people are willing to fight for the rights of all people, but harbour a secret racism against Jews, or what?

Why is it that people who truly believe in ideals such as compassion and equality vilify the actions of the US and Israeli states? Don't criticise me or attack me or call me stupiid, just answer my question. Do you think that all these people are stupid? This post is making me depressed. If even people of high intelligence can't open their eyes to see the world around them for what it really is, we as a civilisation have no chance for the future....

[forgie]

edit:
also, just to prevent you from wasting anytime. I am not pro-jihad, etc etc. I dont think anyone here is. To be critical of israel is not the same as being pro-jihad. So dont waste our time, because we can all coalesce on that at least. Besides, if it concerns you so - and if you were a better person - you might take more of an active interest in the foul play of israel. its things like shooting children in the face, that really cause heads to roll.

To add to that: I am a pacifist. I am not pro-Jihad. I am not pro Israeli state. I denounce suicide bombers. I also denounce Israeli incursions, invasions and occupation of their neighbouring regions. I denounce all acts of violence. I am anti fundamentalist. This means I'm anti Islamic-fundamentalist, anti Jewish-fundamentalist and anti Christian-fundamentalist. I am also anti state-terror, that is terror that is committed in the name of political motivations, not religious ones, which is something that the US and Israel are guilty of.

Why is this so hard for people to accept?

[shtreimel]

Jeez. You are in some serious denial bro.

Your debating skills are outstanding.

[M. Bréqs]

All I can say is that this 'denial of our own evil' attitude exhibited by a few members of this forum is a little sickening.

Of course I'm denying our own evil - because in the case of Israel, I don't believe they're evil. If some Israelis do evil things, it's because they've been pushed to it by a BILLION muslims and half the West wanting their nation destroyed.

Why do you think it is that the vast majority of those who study global politics end up vilifying the US and Israel in terms of their foreign policy? Do you seriously think that everyone in educational institutions is 'brain-washed'?

Not everyone, but here's a bit of a heads up in education. I spent 9 years of my life in university, and can tell you that in our modern academic system, there's a lot of tenured professors from the 1960s and 70s. They cemented their presence and ideology in academia, and to this day the Universities of the West are very left leaning - and a lot of these old History, Poli Sci and Sociology professors are continuing to propagate anti-Israeli sentiment. [edit: and their proteges continue to do so]. These were the men and women who were the targets of successful soviet propaganda, and we are still seeing that bias in universities.

You explained the lefts criticism of Israel as being anti-semitic. Um.... why do the same people who actively protest intolerance (racism, violence, industrial relations issues etc.) also protest against Israel. Do you think that these people are willing to fight for the rights of all people, but harbour a secret racism against Jews, or what?

Why is it that people who truly believe in ideals such as compassion and equality vilify the actions of the US and Israeli states? Don't criticise me or attack me or call me stupiid, just answer my question. Do you think that all these people are stupid? This post is making me depressed. If even people of high intelligence can't open their eyes to see the world around them for what it really is, we as a civilisation have no chance for the future....

Because these compassionate people who see the suffering of the palestinian people want simple, easily digestible answers to why there is such suffering - and a BILLION muslims, coupled with a modern academic and journalistic bias held over from the cold war, have a louder voice than a small number of Israelis. So, it's easier to scapegoat Israel than it is to actually address the fundamental shortcomings of Islamic society.

Remember, most people are emotionally and not logically driven.

[shtreimel]

Any nation who's defense actively involves the slaughter of three year olds as an unspoken policy frankly isn't worth defending.

A soldier doesn't make an army, and an army doesn't make a nation. Of course this link demonstrates an action, one that's been hotly debated I might add, of one soldier. Or even if it's a few soldiers. Does this not happen with cops? With priests? With teachers? Do we label the entire enterprise "vile"? Only those with a smidgen of education and a lot of adolescent angst.

The idea that israel "slaughters children...targets children" is rooted in incredible, naive ignorance or Jew hating. You take your pick.

[forgie]

All I can say is that this 'denial of our own evil' attitude exhibited by a few members of this forum is a little sickening.

Of course I'm denying our own evil - because in the case of Israel, I don't believe they're evil. If some Israelis do evil things, it's because they've been pushed to it by a BILLION muslims and half the West wanting their nation destroyed.

Yikes well that gets to the core of the problem, doesn't it. You have a belief - not necessarily a logical one, mind you - that somehow Israeli's are 'less evil' then Muslims. Why is this? You are saying that Israeli's who commit atrocities have been 'pushed to it by a BILLION Muslims' yet you don't seem to care about any justifications or reasons for violence on the behalf of Muslims. You just consider them evil do you?

Me thinks that your 9 years spent in a University wasn't spent studying politics, or you would be a little wiser then you appear.

[shtreimel]

perhaps shtreimel would like to deny the plethora of sickening afronts on the life of Rachel Corrie, by the pro Israel community?

Theres no lack of evidence of that online.

There's more than enough evidence to indicate the Corrie stood in front of a DC 9 armored bulldozer and was accidentally crushed. Again, Google away...

BTW...your example of this proves what exactly? That Israel targets children? Or that you have a problem with the State itself?

[forgie]

perhaps shtreimel would like to deny the plethora of sickening afronts on the life of Rachel Corrie, by the pro Israel community?

Theres no lack of evidence of that online.

There's more than enough evidence to indicate the Corrie stood in front of a DC 9 armored bulldozer and was accidentally crushed. Again, Google away...

BTW...your example of this proves what exactly? That Israel targets children? Or that you have a problem with the State itself?

No, the example proves the lack of empathy that some Israelis have for the victims of their states violence. Just like some Muslims have no empathy for the victims of their organisations violence.

Why can't you people see that there is virtually no difference between the two?

[shtreimel]

[email protected]

Ah yes..the Guardian…a bastion of truth and unbiased reporting.
See:
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/mediao ... ardian.asp
Chris, if I’d knows you worked for the Guardian and I wouldn't have wasted typing energy responding to your idiocy. It’s like debating folks on Stormfront. In other words, a huge waste of time. Having said that, I'll leave you with the fantasy that Israel targets children in their campaign for Middle East expansion and global domination. There...you heard it straight from a Jew.

[M. Bréqs]

Me thinks that your 9 years spent in a University wasn't spent studying politics, or you would be a little wiser then you appear.

Wrong.

BA in History and Asian Studies, then an MA. My Master's thesis was on the rise of anti-colonialism in Asia. I argued that the nationalist movements "overreacted", throwing the baby out with the bathwater when many nationalist movements dismantled the colonialist systems of governance (to their detriment).

I went to a self-acknowledged leftist university, and I had a hell of a time defending my thesis - but did it, and earned the grudging respect of a number of profs, even convincing some of my way of thinking. Shows you that you CAN teach an old dog new tricks. The problem is that modern university educations are little more than indoctrination sessions these days, and profs are often surprised to find a student who doesn't absorb ideology like a sponge.

[henry ford]

Jeez. You are in some serious denial bro.

Your debating skills are outstanding.

your debating skills are no better, you just make more intolerable 'noise' thats all.

this is why the IDF shoot obviously unarmed children ?

none of it matters, when children are being shot in cold blood.

I lost an entire post while responding to your lunacy. However, these quotes above will suffice. Your mission is to produce legitmate evidence of IDF soldiers intentionally killing children (CNN, CBC, CTV, BBC...etc will do. Please spare us much time and don't post links to Jew hating and/or Islamist sites). If you can't come up with those links, perhaps you should apologize and agree that your whacked ideas have more to do with hate then with history. Hm? Ok Henry, start googling....

as for your ultimatum, I believe I delivered. Now wheres my apology? Or are there double standards in play? Id like to hear your comments on everything I posted in response to your request. The facts, the figures. everything. or say sorry.

Any nation who's defense actively involves the slaughter of three year olds as an unspoken policy frankly isn't worth defending.

A soldier doesn't make an army, and an army doesn't make a nation. Of course this link demonstrates an action, one that's been hotly debated I might add, of one soldier. Or even if it's a few soldiers. Does this not happen with cops? With priests? With teachers? Do we label the entire enterprise "vile"? Only those with a smidgen of education and a lot of adolescent angst.

The idea that israel "slaughters children...targets children" is rooted in incredible, naive ignorance or Jew hating. You take your pick.

charming...the one man/army analogy that is. Sadly the point in question is that these fuckos are not being punished. BY THE STATE. ipso facto...naive lefties like me get upset.
oh, and way to polarise this debate to fanatical extremities. a naive fool or a jew hater ?. ....Im not responding to that. you fucking cunt.

perhaps shtreimel would like to deny the plethora of sickening afronts on the life of Rachel Corrie, by the pro Israel community?

Theres no lack of evidence of that online.

There's more than enough evidence to indicate the Corrie stood in front of a DC 9 armored bulldozer and was accidentally crushed. Again, Google away...

BTW...your example of this proves what exactly? That Israel targets children? Or that you have a problem with the State itself?

speaking for myself, the idf targets children. the israeli state has allowed them to go unpunished for the most part, and has lied as it has done so. and as a result, i have a problem with the state of israel. you piece of dirt.