Mastering

andy_slate · Post by **andy_slate** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:36 pm

if it comes to a software mastering solution, i can also recommend the TC powercore mk2 pci or rackversion.

nice price too: you get what you paid for...

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:42 pm

andy_slate wrote:

you get what you paid for...

this is something that applies 100% to mastering and the devices you need, that's why mastering is so expensive... several thousand dollar for a tiny mastering set-up is nothing. there is unfortenuately no way around...

you simply get what you pay for.

cheers

p.s. the powercore is cool for laptops, but a UAD-1 is better sounding.

smog g · Post by **smog g** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:54 pm

hey!
thanks for your replies!
thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience!

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:57 pm

You are welcome

cheers

andy_slate · Post by **andy_slate** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:04 pm

@subfunk: do u have a UAD1 ?i havent tested it yet but id like to buy it as i heard many good things about it.

besides my "iron" gears, i am also interested in any kind oof good hybrid setups...

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:16 pm

yupp, concerning mastering i think the precision eq is the only really worthy part of the card, that doesn't mean that all of the rest and especially the 1176LN, LA-2A and Fairchild 670 is not bloody fantastic, too.
but as i remember you have a Weiss EQ1 so i don't believe there is any need for a "better" EQ or is there???

as i said the 'rest' of the card is really, really fantastic as well, but has more colour... (mhhh... fairchild) if you need it for some mastering situations (i mean the colour) / production - i don't know if you produce as well? if yes, then shurely for about, i think it's now 800-900 GBP go and grab'it.

it's an incredible piece of gear, and shurely the closest to real high class iron...

cheers

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:37 pm

SubFunk wrote: by ALL RESPECT and i am doing computer generated music myself... (mainly plus recording of live instruments) with Ableton and Logic. (being mainly a Producer) but putting some material through mediocre soundcards, monitor setups with bad or non room treatmeant from people without at least a decade, at least A DECADE of experience and some plugs or even outboard gear... is NOT MASTERING!!!

that doesn't mean, that it is not possible to tweak things very nicely and to be able to make them louder... and b much better sounding. but all this el cheapo stuff, including waves, yes 4000 dollar for the diamond bundle is dead cheap crap when it comes to real MASTERING, all of that stuff which says mastering on the label, like T-Racks or whatever, has absolut nothing, but nothing to do with mastering at all. ARRGGGHHHH!! sorry for that!

so interesting to see this subject come up over and over again, its like mac vs pc: conversation is a valid one

.... but the positions become predictably more emotional and extreme; and the same cast of charachters - under different names - keep showing up saying the same things in a million different ways.

people have this concept of "mastering" that approaches religeous fervor, with people like bob katz approaching godhood, and anyone that every worked with him an engineering saint, all bestowed by the holy powers with mindbending mystical musical engineering talent that no mere mortal should even hope to simulate.

as always with this shit the reality is somewhere in between imo. and yes this is one of those subjects where the term (mastering, in this case) is totally bastardized by people using it in all sorts of ways, that arent really informed about what it really originally meant.

most people on a board like this, when they talk about mastering, mean "what is the process i need to use, and what gear do i need to buy, in order to make my stuff sound as good as most of the other stuff in my genre of choice that i hear"

thats all they mean. most of them are not recording the boston philharmonic, or miles davis latest album, or even abbey road.

they just want thier trance or house or metal band to sound as loud and clear and punchy as thier favorite artist, or as close to that as they can get within thier limited experience and budget.

to do that i think the first thing people need to do is not be intimidated by what people say in these conversations, that are comparing apples and oranges.

the digital source (synths and plugs and samples) that people use in thier music does not need the same kind of mastering tequiques and care and 30+ years of experiences and 100,000 worth of gear that a chamber orchestra does. its not even in the same league.

yes you need a room and monitors that are presenting all the frequencies accurately, and yes you need more experience and time to know what to listen for, and yes you need at least some plugins or maybe some midrange hardware that are good enough to do the kind of music your doing.

and yes, if your track is going to vinyl, its a specialty skill that is better left to someone that has the gear and experience to do it right

but basic electronic mastering is definitely doable because people do it all the time, and its not something that is passed down from generation to generation on a secret scroll, or something you need to suck the blood out of a virgin chicken to do really well. its just not

the people i know that are best at it - some have no formal engineering training - theyre using basic stuff like the wavs plugs or ozone or voxengo - on a pair of mackies or mid-range genelecs in an ordinary good sized livingroom studio with halfway decent acoustics.

and many of the tracks theyve done are well known., well played dance tracks some of which are on popular comps by famous touring DJs. nobody knows the difference and they sound amazing.

i just think a does of reality is in order about this whole thing because kids get freaked out when they see conversations like this and get all bent out of shape thinking they will never be able to do or afford to have things sounding professional

..

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:35 pm

well, supster, you have unarguably your very valid points.

there was a request / question... what I think about it, so i did (even i jumped in this topic! giving my opinionin the first place... excuse).

i just want to avoid that people think mastering is dragging a tune through a Wave L1/2/3 and then call it Mastering, which happens all to often in reality!!!, i also said that it is undoubtly an improvement to tweak stuff, with good ears / setup and skills...

that said, everyone has to start somewhere!!!

very valid points, supster, very true.

there are different values and levels, that said a good sounding track, has it's root in a good mix and production... the use of samples as usually / or mainly done in electronic music makes it also easier... as you said, because very skillfull people with very good gear, tweaked those sounds already to a high level of how they sound! so you just have to "stick them together" (which i don't think is in any way a bad think to do... ) in order to get a good sound.

no argue, here. just again to clarify and the last thing i am intended to, is to scare someone off, or to say it's totaaly impossible to make a very good sounding track in a living room "studio" no missunderstanding here, please!!!

but still there is a reason that in the business of music are different places and therefore connected 'special' skills like:
good artists, good engineers, good producers and good mastering engineers, good managers... and some have one or a few or a mixture of those skills, it's still a matter of how high your quality aproach is.
to let the one or other do the job not 70%, 80%, 90%, 99% NO 100%
and pretty much none of US, except maybee some wonder boys can do everything 100%

cheers
and happy electronic music makin'

but you made very valid points, supster, very true, indeed.

andy_slate · Post by **andy_slate** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:45 pm

give me some time and i will make some demos for you guys:

i will take 1 part of an electronic track ( aprox. 30 sec )

1. umastered
2. mastered with software
3. mastered with hardware

then you will understand the difference ( if u can hear it ) between soft and hard.

when its done, ill post the links.

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:53 pm

andy_slate wrote:

give me some time and i will make some demos for you guys:

i will take 1 part of an electronic track ( aprox. 30 sec )

1. umastered
2. mastered with software
3. mastered with hardware

then you will understand the difference ( if u can hear it ) between soft and hard.

when its done, ill post the links.

cool, you are my man. let the EARS decide... and don't forget to link .wav or AIFF files, we don't want to listen to some mediocre mp3 conversion...

cheers

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:36 pm

SubFunk wrote: very skillfull people with very good gear, tweaked those sounds already to a high level of how they sound! so you just have to "stick them together" (which i don't think is in any way a bad think to do... ) in order to get a good sound.

no argue, here. just again to clarify and the last thing i am intended to, is to scare someone off, or to say it's totaaly impossible to make a very good sounding track in a living room "studio" no missunderstanding here, please!!!

yes well, thats the thing: sometimes its amazing with all electronic sounds, not too many tracks, it all pops together in the mix and has tons of punch and clarity already. you hardly need any 'mastering' really at all on some at one end of the scale.

and at the other end big room progressive and trance needs more real effort, for sure ... i do see way too many people agonizing over and talking about mastering for thier tracks in awed tone of voice,

probably has something to do with the word "master" .. they think only sensei ever can do!!

Inductive · Post by **Inductive** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:24 am

I still think this discussion always boils down to people mixing up the terms 'mixing' and 'mastering'. Just do what you have to do to make things sound how you want them. Maybe you like how it sounds with some nasty DC offset or something. Or clipping the snare which eats everything for .0032 seconds or something. Just work on it till it sounds how you want. And the best advice I've ever gotten from studio type folk? When your mixing/mastering/whatever, take a break every half hour at least. Turn off the music, go outside and blow an L or something. You know how if something realy stinks you get used to it in a few minutes? Same diffrence with your ears. Being outside is good for you pasty producers anyway. And leave your laptop inside. Feed a squirrel or pee in the woods or something. Its the best advice ever. It only takes like 5 or 10 minutes to reset your ears. Thats why I smoke cigs and have a special bottle of wiskey I only drink on my porch. These are the sacrifices we all have to make.

andy_slate · Post by **andy_slate** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:44 am

actually, there's one of my tracks available for free downloading at beatport.

this track is one of 3 funky tech style floor killerz.
it will be out on ADULT records NL.

btw, this EP got mastered with my analog mastering irons...

check it out: http://www.beatport.com/artist/Andy+Slate

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:11 pm

Inductive wrote:

And the best advice I've ever gotten from studio type folk? When your mixing/mastering/whatever, take a break every half hour at least. Turn off the music, go outside and blow an L or something. You know how if something realy stinks you get used to it in a few minutes? Same diffrence with your ears. Being outside is good for you pasty producers anyway. And leave your laptop inside. Feed a squirrel or pee in the woods or something. Its the best advice ever. It only takes like 5 or 10 minutes to reset your ears. Thats why I smoke cigs and have a special bottle of wiskey I only drink on my porch. These are the sacrifices we all have to make.

i second that advice, no matter if mixing or mastering, ear fatigue is a natural process happening to ereyone... (specially after alreday long sessions) and it's a killer for real listening. as you said your ears can easy get used to crap.

cheers

and by the way: supster wrote:

probably has something to do with the word "master" .. they think only sensei ever can do!! Laughing

i disagree, making music, producing and mixing (engineering) is / can be a creative process... or actually should be a creative progress...

mastering is all about getting the highest level of sound and preparing it for the mass duplication on a medium, e.g. Cds or Vinyl, and acomplishing one of the highest skill level jobs in the chain of music making. a really good mastering engineer is a 'master' because he has to leave his personal taste behind (and maintain your work!). he is doing a top class job, not any form of creativity!!! the creativity is in the hand of the client, who wants to have HIS production, music sounding in a particular way, dirty, clean, just loud whatever............

i personally have biggest respect for that ability to apply the asked task with those incredible skills.

as a producer or music maker, you can tweak what you want and be happy with it, because you always get away with it as being part of your: "that's how *I* wanted it". but are you able to tweak stuff from a given accurate request??? spot on... a mastering engineer does!!!

algorhythm · Post by **algorhythm** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:22 pm

Waves' mastering suite is quite good. they're plugins so u can use them directly through live