Different sound when arming/disarming a channel (w/ effects)

[adam_harzuf]

Hi! Try this:
Open a midi channel with an instrument
Insert an audio effect like Saturator to a return channel
Send 100% of signal to it from the midi channel
Play, and try to arm/disarm the track (or switch between Auto and Off in the Monitoring section)

Sounds different!
Armed/monitor on Auto sound ill, while Disarmed/monitor Off sound good.

Furthermore weird: Now, if you open an audio track, DISACTIVATE its audio out (to the master, naturaly) so we don't even hear it, and route the midi channel's audio to its input, the sound is always good from the midi channel - route a different audio input channel to our "dummy" audio channel - sound turns ill again! (when the midi chan is on Arm/Auto).

This really hurts working with effects channels, as you can't really monitor your result while you're working on a sound, especially when you record automation, and you must arm the track.

....what's going on....?

[adam_harzuf]

After messing around a bit, I also found that if you put the sends on Prefader, then turn down the volume of the original midi channel, and do the switching, the quality of the effects in the return tracks remains the same - so it's only the source channle which is hurt.

[leisuremuffin]

i'm having some trouble figuring out what you're talking about, but all i can say is that it must be something that your midi controller is sending. Maybe your mod wheel is all the way up on your midi controller ant that is affecting your sound.


monitor in/auto/off on a midi channel just changes whether or not midi information is going to reach the instrument that is loaded on that track.




.lm.

[adam_harzuf]

Well, just read and try!

All you need is 1 midi track with an instrument (if you got a midi loop to run it it's convenient) and 1 return channel with an effect. just put the send level on %100 and leave both tracks's volume at normal operating level, as default, then arm the track and switch between Auto and Off.

I tried to isolate every midi device I have and it didn't work. However, another interesting discovery is that if you change the midi input of our source channel to another channel (instead one of the midi ports which are available by hardware), it sounds good.

very, very weird...

[adam_harzuf]

You wouldn't believe what was causing this!

Just the essense of a Waves TrueVerb in one of the inactive return channels...
What I now found out is that using external VST effects in a Return channels causes the problem, even if that Return channel is inactive - as long as there's another Return channel that is recieving audio and is active, it will screw up the source channel's signal.
What this meens that it's impossible to use VST's in Return channels - only as inserts in the regular channels. Well Lucky me I like ableton's effects

Computers are so unpredictable sometimes...
well problem solved I'm calm now

[leisuremuffin]

????


i use third party vsts on return tracks all the time.



Waves plug ins unfortunately have a bunch of problems in 5.



.lm.

[adam_harzuf]

Well, it also depends on the amount you send to the effect track, and the effect track's level, as I said, all should be at %100 if you want to hear it well. Maybe it is unnoticable for you because you use effects differently.

Did you try to do exactly what I described?

[FaX-01]

Well, it also depends on the amount you send to the effect track, and the effect track's level, as I said, all should be at %100 if you want to hear it well. Maybe it is unnoticable for you because you use effects differently.

Did you try to do exactly what I described?

Have you EVER used an ANALOG DESK.
I sure as hell would not set an effect tracks level send to 100%.
Or the effect in that send & return too 100% wet either,
If you want 100% wet you should ideally use an insert effect.
Sends are for global fx like Reverb or Delay etc which as a rule of thumb are designed for combined wet/dry signal mixing or for general spacialising effects and the like.
I'm suprised you haven't got some shitfully hideous feedback loops doing what you have been doing or haven't blown a speaker or your eardrums in the process.
Using effects in send & return and/or insert are meant for two totally different fx application methods.
Knowing when to use which technique and using it correctly generally avoids such anomolies.
I have personally never had a problem with the Live send/return effects routing scheme what so ever.
So I can't unfortunately confirm that there is actually any problem with its implementation.